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  #1  
Old 10-08-2018, 11:05 PM
Drum Transit Drum Transit is offline
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Default 70s-era Zildjian 21 inch ride. Rock Ride?

Hi all,
Long-time reader, first-time poster! I just acquired a 21" Zildjian ride. The stamp tells me it's from the 1970s, but the thing is quite heavy compared with my 20" medium ride I've been playing.

Questions:
--Is this a Rock Ride? Or maybe a Ping Ride? (I can't find anything on 21" Pings from the 70s, though)
--Did Zildjian make any other models of 21" rides in the 70s, such as a standard A medium ride?

I think the seller was confused on the different models of cymbals and implied it was a standard A medium. Regardless of what it is, it looks great for being 40+ years old.
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  #2  
Old 10-09-2018, 12:59 AM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: 70s-era Zildjian 21 inch ride. Rock Ride?

Drum_Transit

If it is a 21" then it isn't likely to be a PING because they came in 20" from 1971, and 18" and 22" were added in 1976. No odd diameters that I've seen, and 21" is not mentioned in the official Zildjian model list.

Rock Rides came in 21" and based on 6 examples with model ink they weigh 2900g (unusually light) to 3900g (unusually heavy 80s one) with a median weight of about 3300g. Rock Rides came out in 1973.

Yes there are also 21" Medium Rides. Medium Rides with model ink have been around at least since the 50s, but I don't have weights of 21" 70s examples with their model ink intact. An 80s one weighs 3056g, which is fairly portly. I may have a few pending records to process will give a bit more Medium Ride specific data. The trouble is that 21" cymbals are relatively uncommon compared to 20" and 22", and then most have lost their ink.

The general weight distribution for 21" cymbals is found on my site:

http://black.net.nz/avedis/avedis-prices.html#21

21" Sweet Rides (a more recent model) weigh in from 2450g to 2550g and have the 6" bell (so I'm told by those who claim to know -- haven't measured one myself). There are plenty of older 21" cymbals (lacking model ink) which also weigh in that range. There are also Light Rides and Crash Rides from the 80s in 21" but they are light as well.

It might be useful to post images of the trademark stamp and the whole cymbal from the top and the bottom. 21" cymbals came with 6" bells (certainly the Rock did) which might help distinguish them from other models which might have a 5" or 5.5" diameter bell. However, I've got a 70s A Zildjian Canada 21" which has a 6" bell and weighs 2660g. Alas it has no model ink left on it. So perhaps it is a Medium or Medium Thin with a 6" bell. I just haven't gotten far enough in data analysis to have all the models sorted out yet in terms of bells.
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Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 10-09-2018 at 01:03 AM.
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  #3  
Old 10-09-2018, 09:55 AM
Black Label Black Label is offline
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Default Re: 70s-era Zildjian 21 inch ride. Rock Ride?

Hello there - interesting question. I have a 21" 60's stamp Avedis Zildjian ride that weighs in at around 3000g. It is currently my absolute favorite ride cymbal with a sweet ping over a nice wash and with a killer bell. Zen, if I understand you correctly, this ride can then not be a Rock Ride due to the date of introduction? I always just assumed that it was a Rock Ride due to its weight and killer bell.

Cheers
Erik
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'71 Ludwig Blue Oyster Pearl 13/16/22x14
'71 Ludwig White Marine Pearl 12/13/16/22x14
60's Yamaha D22 13/16 and 22 Star Bass Drum
60's Star Blue Ripple 12/13/14/16/22x14
Tama Starclassic Maple 10/12/16/22x16
Tama Starclassic Brass 14.5,5
Tama Starclassic Steel 14 x 4
Ludwig Supra 14 x 5 (x2)
Ludwig Acro 14 x 5
Mapex Black Panther Cherry Maple 13x6
Slingerland Brass 14 x 5
Paiste / Zildjian / Zyn / Tosco / Meinl
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  #4  
Old 10-09-2018, 11:13 AM
woody1953 woody1953 is offline
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Thumbs up Re: 70s-era Zildjian 21 inch ride. Rock Ride?

Erik,
I too have a 60's stamp 21" at 2960 grams. It has a "normal" size bell and is my favorite ride....EVER!
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1968 Ludwig Super Classic kit Blue Oyster Pearl
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1968 Ludwig Hollywood kit Blue Oyster Pearl
22, 12, 13, 16
A Zildjian cymbals (50's-70's)
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  #5  
Old 10-09-2018, 01:18 PM
Black Label Black Label is offline
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Default Re: 70s-era Zildjian 21 inch ride. Rock Ride?

Quote:
Originally Posted by woody1953 View Post
Erik,
I too have a 60's stamp 21" at 2960 grams. It has a "normal" size bell and is my favorite ride....EVER!
Hi there Woody - yeah, mine is also a normal size bell - I don't know what it is about this cymbal but it is truly the sweetest ride I've ever played - it's kind of magical. It has a beautiful bright but "light" ping which is strong enough but not overwhelming - pitched just high enough to be good for anything you would ever need it for. Although it is quite stiff, I can wash-ride it with the shoulder of the stick and the bell is truly a beast. I own plenty rides and am mainly a Paiste guy but there's not a single other ride that I own that is as versatile and perfect - it has not left the cymbal stand for ages and is always in my cymbal bag when I play out. All Paiste ................. except for the ride.
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'71 Ludwig Blue Oyster Pearl 13/16/22x14
'71 Ludwig White Marine Pearl 12/13/16/22x14
60's Yamaha D22 13/16 and 22 Star Bass Drum
60's Star Blue Ripple 12/13/14/16/22x14
Tama Starclassic Maple 10/12/16/22x16
Tama Starclassic Brass 14.5,5
Tama Starclassic Steel 14 x 4
Ludwig Supra 14 x 5 (x2)
Ludwig Acro 14 x 5
Mapex Black Panther Cherry Maple 13x6
Slingerland Brass 14 x 5
Paiste / Zildjian / Zyn / Tosco / Meinl

Last edited by Black Label; 10-09-2018 at 01:21 PM.
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  #6  
Old 10-09-2018, 03:32 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: 70s-era Zildjian 21 inch ride. Rock Ride?

Thanks for playing guys...

Which diameter bell is "normal" for you two? Do you mean a 5" diameter one? This is where I start to run short of quality data for 21" cymbals. I've got a few ways to measure bells, but it is always a little difficult to define where the bell begins when there is a very gradual bell bow transition. My latest method is a curvature template gauge which allows accurate (1mm) shape and size comparisons. Failing that you are reduced to some of my earlier techniques:

http://black.net.nz/avedis/bells.html#anatomy101

If you've got an 18" - 20" with a 5" bell then you can nest it within the 21" and see of they are the same. I do the nesting both ways (21" on top, 21" underneath) which gives good relative size information.

As far as a 21" cymbal with a 60s stamp which weighs in around 3000g that could be a Medium Ride model. If it has no model ink left it is hard to say for sure. I've got lots more data for 20" than 21" and I see what I need to do is work through all the model ink analysis for 20", 21" and 22" and present them together as a way of informing the relatively sparse 21" weight data.

Also, there isn't anything wrong with finding a 60s trademark stamp on a Rock Ride even thought Rock Rides came out in 1973. The common nickname "60s stamp" is a little oversimplified. On present evidence what we call the "70s" stamp might have a year of first use in the factory of late 1972 or 1973. Notable changes a few years into a new decade rather than on the exact decade boundary is consistent with the 90s (laser stamps 1994), 80s (CO stamp in 1982ish, and hollow ink Zildjian to solid in late 1982) and what we can reconstruct for the 50s/60s boundary. It's just that our expectations are off because we like to oversimplify and use the decade nicknames.

I've recorded one 60s short stamp and one 60s tall stamp on Rock models* which still have model ink on them, compared to 7 "70s" with stamps and 24 "80s" era. So we see production ramping up and/or varying number of production years in each identifiable "production era". The id as "80s" era can be the CO stamp and/or other "80s" ink like the solid ink Zildjian and diameter info. One of the things revealed as sample sizes grow is that it looks like the "70s" stamp outlasted the CO stamp and the "70s" stamp is found on cymbals with late 80s to 1993 ink. But this is all ongoing work and subject to change as more quality data comes to hand.

* note in these counts I've included all diameters as well as Rock Ride, Rock Hats, and Rock Crash. They were all introduced together.
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For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 10-09-2018 at 06:56 PM. Reason: more details added on decade boundaries
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  #7  
Old 10-09-2018, 07:04 PM
woody1953 woody1953 is offline
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Default Re: 70s-era Zildjian 21 inch ride. Rock Ride?

Howdy Zenstat,

I will measure both the bell and exact diameter tomorrow. Since I don't have the gauge you mentioned, it will be as exact as I can. I will let you know and will include a photo of the stamp for your confirmation as to decade.

Thank you again for your help identifying my 18", 1685g as a 50's small stamp, a couple months back.

Woody
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1968 Ludwig Super Classic kit Blue Oyster Pearl
22, 13, 16, 14x5
1968 Ludwig Hollywood kit Blue Oyster Pearl
22, 12, 13, 16
A Zildjian cymbals (50's-70's)
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  #8  
Old 10-09-2018, 10:16 PM
Drum Transit Drum Transit is offline
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Default Re: 70s-era Zildjian 21 inch ride. Rock Ride?

Thank you, all!!! This is incredibly helpful. Zenstat, yes, your websites have been a wealth of information, and that's how I was initially able to determine this cymbal was from the 70s. Seems like this is indeed a Rock Ride. Attached are some pics. I measured the bell and it seems to be 6 inches (definitely larger than bells on other rides), though as you alluded to with the difficulty with bell measurements, 6 inches might not be 100% accurate.

I just really played this for the first time and the bell is insanely loud, in a good way. Overall the cymbal has a big presence compared with what I'm used to. The jury is still out as to weather I keep it or not.

It's funny you're all talking about a 60s A medium being a great cymbal, as I played around on one of those a few months ago at a store, and it was incredible, which led me to be looking at vintage A mediums. I first began learning drums with my dad's Zildijians that he got new in 1961, so maybe its something about that sound that has stuck with me.

Thanks again!
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  #9  
Old 10-09-2018, 10:19 PM
Drum Transit Drum Transit is offline
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Default Re: 70s-era Zildjian 21 inch ride. Rock Ride?

Just realized that maybe I should've measured the bell from the underside? Maybe then this is a 5-inch bell.
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  #10  
Old 10-09-2018, 11:09 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: 70s-era Zildjian 21 inch ride. Rock Ride?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drum Transit View Post
Just realized that maybe I should've measured the bell from the underside? Maybe then this is a 5-inch bell.
No need. It's a 6" bell all right. I've done a quick comparison of the diameter of the bell in the photo from the top (45mm) and the overall diameter (153mm). Knowing those two plus the real diameter of 21" you can calculate the bell diameter: 6"

It's usually easy enough (and accurate enough) to pick a 6" from a 5" bell even when the exact edge of the bell is hard to spot. A cross check is that the mounting hole is 1/2" and appears as 3.5mm on the photo.

I occasionally have an uncertain outcome when trying to pick a 5" bell vs a 5.5" bell if the edge of the bell is hard to spot. The 5.5" bell is also a little higher than the 5" which helps if you have the cymbals in front of you. But that doesn't work from photos.

I'm slowly building up data on which diameter cymbals (and which models) have which bells. There was a common core of 5 different bells at one point (60s?) but since the 80s (or is it more like 90s?) a few more bell dies have been created. Paul Francis has provided some of the specific info on those and in some cases they were actually cloned from much older cymbals.

Unfortunately for the current discussion, what I'm not sure of at the moment is whether that 6" bell die was in use on the 21" Medium Ride in the 60s and 70s.
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For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
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