Vintage Drum Forum the best vintage drum forum on the Internet - Vintage Drum History - Vintage Drum Questions

Go Back   Vintage Drum Forum > Vintage Drums

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 08-16-2018, 12:20 PM
Mr.Toast Mr.Toast is online now
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 246
Default Re: Old pies

This shows what I know...

I was under the impression that "pies" referred only to Paiste cymbals, because the spelling looks like it should be pronounced pasty, and the nickname "pies" reinforced the correct pronunciation. But hey, I'm a guy that spent several years thinking that young people were saying "my bag" when they would make a mistake. It made sense metaphorically...like they were taking ownership of the mistake and putting it into their bag of mistakes.

I have since been corrected...my bag.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-16-2018, 01:42 PM
BosLover BosLover is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 1,009
Default Re: Old pies

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
Pretty good first level summary.

I'd add that having "R Spizzichino" does as well as having "K" and "Istanbul" these days. Thin is in fashion although not in a simple linear way. We are starting to see a nonlinear effect with a "sweet range" which gets the greatest price boost. Cymbals which fall well outside of that "sweet range" (either much heavier or much lighter) do not get the highest prices. Old is in fashion but once again there are a few other factors which interact with production era in predicting price. Examples are the earliest Turkish K Zildjian Constantinople cymbals or the early 1930s Avedis Zildjian cymbals. Depending on other factors like diameter and weight they don't always do as well as the production eras a bit later in time for those respective manufacturers.

I've done a bit of work on pricing models and what factors predict price. How much you can glean from it depends on how much mathematics you are ready for. Follow the links in my signature for more. I've got a database with thousands of completed cymbal sales. I don't have any information on the relative price or availability of blueberries or mulberries.
While I love old K's, for me and my son it's currently thin Tran stamp rides that do it for us. Happily, they are less inexpensive than old K's although they are harder to find.
__________________
Mark
BosLover
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-16-2018, 04:28 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,520
Default Re: Old pies

Quote:
Originally Posted by BosLover View Post
While I love old K's, for me and my son it's currently thin Tran stamp rides that do it for us. Happily, they are less inexpensive than old K's although they are harder to find.
Thin Trans Stamp rides are nice to my ears, and are less expensive than old Ks. I'm not sure where you draw the line for Thin in different diameter Trans stamp rides, although I've got data which gives the shape of the weight distributions. And we could discuss the relative numbers of old Ks versus Trans Stamps for sale over the 5 years I've been tracking them to look at "harder to find".
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 08-16-2018 at 10:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-17-2018, 12:01 AM
BosLover BosLover is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 1,009
Default Re: Old pies

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
Thin Trans Stamp rides are nice to my ears, and are less expensive than old Ks. I'm not sure where you draw the line for Thin in different diameter Trans stamp rides, although I've got data which gives the shape of the weight distributions. And we could discuss the relative numbers of old Ks versus Trans Stamps for sale over the 5 years I've been tracking them to look at "harder to find".
Well, maybe just harder for me to find. I don't buy cymbals without hearing them first, and that's the hard part.
__________________
Mark
BosLover
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-17-2018, 01:21 PM
hardbat hardbat is offline
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 195
Default Re: Old pies

I think the most expensive cymbals I've ever seen are those early 18-19" orchestral pair K Zildjians made in Constantinople.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-17-2018, 01:50 PM
Purdie Shuffle Purdie Shuffle is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Reading, PA
Posts: 8,926
Default Re: Old pies

My guess for the most expensive cymbal in the world (if it was up for auction,) would be the Zildjian ride cymbal that Joe Morello used on Brubeck's Take Five album.

John
__________________
Too many great drums to list here!

http://www.walbergandauge.com/VintageVenue.htm
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-17-2018, 04:22 PM
DrumBob DrumBob is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NW NJ
Posts: 367
Default Re: Old pies

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDragon View Post
Blueberries or mulberries.... can't get them as easily........ (metal disc are not 'PIES')
Yes, thank you for mentioning that. And doesn't this thread belong in the section on cymbals?
__________________
'01 DW Collectors Series, Oyster White, 10/12/14/16/22
'64 Slingerland, 13/16/22 (to be restored)
'65 Leedy, Blue Sparkle, 12/14/20
'67 Ludwig, Burgundy Sparkle, 12/13/16/22
'73 Slingerland, Sky Blue Pearl, 12/13/16/22
'72 Rogers, Oyster Black, 13/16/22
'70s Tempro, Red Grain Pearl, 12/14/14sn/20
Too many snares to list!

Author of the book, "Great Rock Drummers Of The Sixties."
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-17-2018, 04:25 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,520
Default Re: Old pies

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardbat View Post
I think the most expensive cymbals I've ever seen are those early 18-19" orchestral pair K Zildjians made in Constantinople.
Yes those 18" plus orchestral pairs seem to be a special case in terms of pricing. Opinions vary and are sometimes strongly held regarding what they will sell for. For example this thread:

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=58139

which you have a post in. Since then, a single 18" sold for $1742.17 at an unusually light (for these) 1134g on the 18th of Feb 2018 and feedback has been placed so it looks like a solid data point. While it lasts here is the link:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NICE-ZILDJI...-/173144686218

so you can have a look in context. Double that and add a margin for a pair as a pair and you might get to the other top sale price I've recorded for a 22".

The most expensive 22" Old Stamp K Zildjian Istanbul I've got on record is one bought by Bill Maley for $4000 reported in 2011. That was a Hartrick Old Stamp Type IIa. There was one sale back in 2013 at $3850, then there is a bit of a gap in the prices until you get down to about $3200. There are 4 asking prices above $3400 where there were no bids, and there are two sales which are suspicious in that no feedback was ever placed and/or the cymbal may have gone for a lower offer but we can't know what that was.

Trying to get accurate estimates in these cases is rather like the special estimation procedures which are used to estimate 1 in a 100 year floods where you are trying to get the shape of a curve at the extreme end of a distribution and there are never enough data points for it to be well estimated. *sigh*
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 08-18-2018 at 04:05 PM. Reason: clarified
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-17-2018, 09:44 PM
steff steff is offline
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Italy
Posts: 72
Default Re: Old pies

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaghog View Post
What makes a pie worth a lot ?
with Zen statistics you can get an accurate idea,

the little points there is:

1) quality factor (OLD K first, then Spizzichino, and then all the others)
2) conditions factor (Aged well first, then NOS, then aged badly and finally cracked)
3) weight factor, bell type, shape type
4) fashion factor, today very wash tomorrow a lot of ping
5) holy grail factor depends on many factors for connoisseurs & nerds
6) belonged to Elvin Jones or his friends, add one or more zeros to the end

I think in broad terms
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2009 VSDwebdesign