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  #21  
Old 04-04-2020, 02:54 PM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: Bend a Pang to a be like a regular cymbal????

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Originally Posted by BosLover View Post
I don't think a great jazz ride would sound good on metal, assuming it survived it the ordeal. I also doubt that a cymbal that is ideal for metal would be a good choice for jazz. You can play them, of course, but in each case there would be far better choices.

A Beethoven violin concerto can be played on a late 17th century Stradivarius or on a new Yamaha YSV104 SILENT electronic violin. The question is, which serves the music better.
If you mean thin by great jazz ride, I don't like thin cymbals at all.
A thick cymbal can be played very lightly and sound jazzy. Especially the bell and near it.

A good board can make your drums sound like a whistle or lion's roar,...Does a board serve the music better ? Everyone uses them.

Before I got my first kit, I only had a HH and a cookie sheet taped to a stool. For about two years that's all I played as a young buck. (A Fat Albert kit) I added buckets and boxes. Then I found a CB 700 snare in the trash, life was good then.
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  #22  
Old 04-04-2020, 02:56 PM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: Bend a Pang to a be like a regular cymbal????

To stay on topic the top hat was bent up like a china, I worked it back down close to normal. The only factory mark on them is a "Japan" really tiny on the edge.
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  #23  
Old 04-04-2020, 04:45 PM
BosLover BosLover is offline
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Default Re: Bend a Pang to a be like a regular cymbal????

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Originally Posted by OddBall View Post
If you mean thin by great jazz ride, I don't like thin cymbals at all.
A thick cymbal can be played very lightly and sound jazzy. Especially the bell and near it.

A good board can make your drums sound like a whistle or lion's roar,...Does a board serve the music better ? Everyone uses them.

Before I got my first kit, I only had a HH and a cookie sheet taped to a stool. For about two years that's all I played as a young buck. (A Fat Albert kit) I added buckets and boxes. Then I found a CB 700 snare in the trash, life was good then.
While there are always exceptions, the ride cymbals that seem to be most prized by jazz players tend to have many of the following characteristics:

1. Medium to thin in weight, but with a greater preference for thinner cymbals.

2. Controlled crashes without a lot of hangover

3. A complex and somewhat trashy underlying wash, with controlled overtones, that does not overwhelm the sticking when digging in.

4. A well defined woody or clicky stick.

5. Limited volume. A good jazz ride should not overwhelm other acoustic instruments, low volume electronic instruments, or vocalists; even when digging in.

6. Bells should be on the dark side, not overly bright, harsh, metallic, or pingy.
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Last edited by BosLover; 04-04-2020 at 05:29 PM.
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  #24  
Old 04-04-2020, 10:51 PM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: Bend a Pang to a be like a regular cymbal????

Quote:
Originally Posted by BosLover View Post
While there are always exceptions, the ride cymbals that seem to be most prized by jazz players tend to have many of the following characteristics:

1. Medium to thin in weight, but with a greater preference for thinner cymbals.

2. Controlled crashes without a lot of hangover

3. A complex and somewhat trashy underlying wash, with controlled overtones, that does not overwhelm the sticking when digging in.

4. A well defined woody or clicky stick.

5. Limited volume. A good jazz ride should not overwhelm other acoustic instruments, low volume electronic instruments, or vocalists; even when digging in.

6. Bells should be on the dark side, not overly bright, harsh, metallic, or pingy.
Now I really only understand #2 and 4, the rest I'm not sure what you mean. # 2, grab it, #4 wood tip woody, or plastic clicky.

When I commented on the first video, cus I didn't go further, it sounds like sh*t. There's no definition between hits, he's edging and tip hitting it with no clue what he's doing. It was straight wash and rivet the whole time.

Not to mention he does the one thing I can't stand, ever, he lays the stick flat on the snare and does that stupid click, click on the rim. WTF is that ?? I'd like to see him stop and play that ride with both sticks for a few maybe ten seconds, or if he's brave, a minute. Show what it really sounds like.

I'm not hating Boss, just commenting OK.
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Last edited by OddBall; 04-04-2020 at 10:53 PM.
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  #25  
Old 04-04-2020, 10:59 PM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: Bend a Pang to a be like a regular cymbal????

I learned that you wack a crash and pull off a ride.
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  #26  
Old 04-05-2020, 12:13 AM
BosLover BosLover is offline
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Default Re: Bend a Pang to a be like a regular cymbal????

Quote:
Originally Posted by OddBall View Post
Now I really only understand #2 and 4, the rest I'm not sure what you mean. # 2, grab it, #4 wood tip woody, or plastic clicky.

When I commented on the first video, cus I didn't go further, it sounds like sh*t. There's no definition between hits, he's edging and tip hitting it with no clue what he's doing. It was straight wash and rivet the whole time.

Not to mention he does the one thing I can't stand, ever, he lays the stick flat on the snare and does that stupid click, click on the rim. WTF is that ?? I'd like to see him stop and play that ride with both sticks for a few maybe ten seconds, or if he's brave, a minute. Show what it really sounds like.

I'm not hating Boss, just commenting OK.
#1 Medium to thin in weight, but with a greater preference for thinner cymbals?
I believe you already know the preference is for thinner cymbals.

#3, A complex and somewhat trashy underlying wash, with controlled overtones, that does not overwhelm the sticking when digging in?
Most of the old K videos that Drumaholic and others posts are examples of it.

#4 A well defined woody or clicky stick.
Woody or clicky does not mean a wood or plastic tip, The terms are used interchangeably to refer to a well defined, non metallic, darker stick sound when playing ride patterns. You can get this with a plastic tip as well although it may be a bit pingier sounding because the plastic has a harder surface. Its more about the cymbal than the stick, although technique and the sticks used certainly play a part. Such cymbals often also tend to have a generally darker, smokey sound and an almost buttery feel to them when playing ride patterns. I can not define a buttery cymbal feel for you. Once you play one, you'll know what I mean.

#5 Limited volume. A good jazz ride should not overwhelm other acoustic instruments, low volume electronic instruments, or vocalists; even when digging in..
In other words, good jazz cymbals are not generally extremely loud even when you dig in when playing ride patterns or crashing. Some are very quiet compared to their hard rock siblings. You want them to serve the music, not shout out "look at me".

#6. Bells should be on the dark side, not overly bright, harsh, metallic, or pingy.
Jazz ride bells are generally darker and don't ring as much as rock oriented cymbals. Cymbals like Old Stamp K's have a dark clunkier sound with relatively little ringing

Not to mention he does the one thing I can't stand, ever, he lays the stick flat on the snare and does that stupid click, click on the rim. WTF is that ??
In the video you are referring to, that technique is called cross sticking and it is a valuable drummer's tool especially during acoustic solos, like from bassists or behind quiet vocals, or for subtle Latin accents for sambas and bossa novas, etc It was originally used as a replacement for a wood block. When appropriate to the music I've used that technique in small acoustic ensembles for jazz and light pop at parties or clubs for close to 60 years. It, like anything else, can be overdone. It is not a technique that one would normally use in rock. Sorry you don't like it. How do you feel about brushes?

Just to summarize there are significant differences between great jazz cymbals and great rock cymbals but, there is some overlap. As an example of that is the new Zildjian Avedis line which transcends jazz and and some styles of rock. I own a 22" and a 20" myself. But the main problem with them is that while they are very good cymbals, they are not truly great for either purpose IMHO. In general the two genres are best served by different cymbals.

Hope this helped.
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Last edited by BosLover; 04-05-2020 at 03:29 AM.
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  #27  
Old 04-05-2020, 12:29 AM
Drumaholic Drumaholic is offline
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Default Re: Bend a Pang to a be like a regular cymbal????

Quote:
Originally Posted by OddBall View Post
It was straight wash and rivet the whole time.
I'm wondering if the cymbal that Odd is talking about is not even the same cymbal that Bos is referring to. Namely because the 22" is riveted and the 18" is not. And it seems to me that Odd speaks of a riveted ride, (the 22") and Bos and jda seem to be referring to the re-worked 18" K. (which I also agree sounded good).

So maybe there's not a disagreement here at all, but rather "what we have here is a failure to communicate".
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  #28  
Old 04-05-2020, 11:59 AM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: Bend a Pang to a be like a regular cymbal????

Quote:
Originally Posted by BosLover View Post
#1 Medium to thin in weight, but with a greater preference for thinner cymbals?
I believe you already know the preference is for thinner cymbals.

#3, A complex and somewhat trashy underlying wash, with controlled overtones, that does not overwhelm the sticking when digging in?
Most of the old K videos that Drumaholic and others posts are examples of it.

#4 A well defined woody or clicky stick.
Woody or clicky does not mean a wood or plastic tip, The terms are used interchangeably to refer to a well defined, non metallic, darker stick sound when playing ride patterns. You can get this with a plastic tip as well although it may be a bit pingier sounding because the plastic has a harder surface. Its more about the cymbal than the stick, although technique and the sticks used certainly play a part. Such cymbals often also tend to have a generally darker, smokey sound and an almost buttery feel to them when playing ride patterns. I can not define a buttery cymbal feel for you. Once you play one, you'll know what I mean.

#5 Limited volume. A good jazz ride should not overwhelm other acoustic instruments, low volume electronic instruments, or vocalists; even when digging in..
In other words, good jazz cymbals are not generally extremely loud even when you dig in when playing ride patterns or crashing. Some are very quiet compared to their hard rock siblings. You want them to serve the music, not shout out "look at me".

#6. Bells should be on the dark side, not overly bright, harsh, metallic, or pingy.
Jazz ride bells are generally darker and don't ring as much as rock oriented cymbals. Cymbals like Old Stamp K's have a dark clunkier sound with relatively little ringing

Not to mention he does the one thing I can't stand, ever, he lays the stick flat on the snare and does that stupid click, click on the rim. WTF is that ??
In the video you are referring to, that technique is called cross sticking and it is a valuable drummer's tool especially during acoustic solos, like from bassists or behind quiet vocals, or for subtle Latin accents for sambas and bossa novas, etc It was originally used as a replacement for a wood block. When appropriate to the music I've used that technique in small acoustic ensembles for jazz and light pop at parties or clubs for close to 60 years. It, like anything else, can be overdone. It is not a technique that one would normally use in rock. Sorry you don't like it. How do you feel about brushes?

Just to summarize there are significant differences between great jazz cymbals and great rock cymbals but, there is some overlap. As an example of that is the new Zildjian Avedis line which transcends jazz and and some styles of rock. I own a 22" and a 20" myself. But the main problem with them is that while they are very good cymbals, they are not truly great for either purpose IMHO. In general the two genres are best served by different cymbals.

Hope this helped.

It does.

I can't read or write a note of any kind so when people start describing cymbal sounds the way they been taught I don't relate because I have no teaching. Some of it's easy to understand though. Our terminology is different. I don't use them. For instance overtones to me is a cymbals hum. I'm not in that league of correct terminology.
Click and chick are the way I describe a wood tip and plastic tip. The way you described this time makes it easier for me as opposed to just saying the terms. I'm terminology illiterate. I appreciate taking the time to spell it out to me.

I new to Jazz, (3 years or so) never liked it before, until I watched videos of Philly, Buddy, Morello, Sammy Davis and some others and realized,...I can't do that. Been chasing it since. Now I can't stop.

It's not just cross sticking style I can't stand, I hate rock drummers with ten cymbals and that's all they play. I'm partial to the fire truck bell sound. They don't change much no matter what part of the stick is used. I separate a Rock cymbal from Jazz cymbal by the way it's played and not what it is. I'm not that refined.
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  #29  
Old 04-05-2020, 12:09 PM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: Bend a Pang to a be like a regular cymbal????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumaholic View Post
I'm wondering if the cymbal that Odd is talking about is not even the same cymbal that Bos is referring to. Namely because the 22" is riveted and the 18" is not. And it seems to me that Odd speaks of a riveted ride, (the 22") and Bos and jda seem to be referring to the re-worked 18" K. (which I also agree sounded good).

So maybe there's not a disagreement here at all, but rather "what we have here is a failure to communicate".
Yes, the 22 2298g, the first link. That cymbal will wash out when you don't want it to. Sounds really clangy. His playing does no justice, he hits the end, edge only and plays thick stick bell only. No way to hear the way it may really sound. I wish he played it all around near the bell, tip on bell, different parts of the flat, but some men you just can't reach, so you end up with what we had the other day, which is the way he wants it,...well, he gits it. It sounds like sh*t !!
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  #30  
Old 04-05-2020, 12:24 PM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: Bend a Pang to a be like a regular cymbal????

I went and listened to his other videos, the 20"1889g is one I would buy, it wont wash out on ya and sounds pretty cool. The waves or wobbling would drive me nuts though.
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