Vintage Drum Forum the best vintage drum forum on the Internet - Vintage Drum History - Vintage Drum Questions

Go Back   Vintage Drum Forum > Vintage Cymbals

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-29-2017, 05:50 PM
grantro grantro is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,122
Cool Unknown Hi Hats Identification

Hey all,

I received these hats in a cymbal lot recently...There are no stamps that I can see...1043/857 grams...They have interesting lathing...

Can anyone identify these or provide some info?

Cheers
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Resized No Name hi hats 001.jpg
Views:	49
Size:	80.7 KB
ID:	114440   Click image for larger version

Name:	Resized No Name hi hats 002.jpg
Views:	49
Size:	43.5 KB
ID:	114441  
__________________
1976 Ludwig Mach 4 Thermogloss 26-18-14-14sn
1971 Ludwig Classic Bowling Ball OBP 22-16-14-13
1978 Ludwig Stainless 22-22-18-16-14-13-12 c/w 6-8-10-12-13-14-15-16-18-20-22-24 concert toms
1960's Stewart Peacock Pearl 20-16-12-14sn
1980`s Ludwig Coliseum Piano Black 8x14 snare
1973 Rogers Superten 5x14 & 6.5x14 COS snares
1954 Rogers Classmate 4x13 snare
1970`s John Grey Capri Aquamarine Sparkle 5x14 snare
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-29-2017, 07:01 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,517
Default Re: Unknown Hi Hats Identification

That sort of stepped lathing is found on some Italian cymbals. I've watched a production video and you can see the UFIP guys doing the lathing in distinct steps with a brief pause in between.



The area in the red circle shows another feature found on Italian cymbals. There can be zones of very fine lathe chatter. The diagnosis of chatter if from master cymbalmaker Matt Nolan who has observed it happening on his own lathe. Although these Italian cymbals tend to be hammered, it can sometimes be very broad and shallow are hard to see (or photograph).

Another test of Italian origin is the diameter. They tended to make cymbals in a metric diameter so instead of exactly 14" they will be 35cm (slightly undersized). On the other hand, if 13" they will seem full sized because 13" is 33.02 cm. But you do have to remember that other manufacturing regions (China and Turkey) also produced undersized cymbals too, so simply being an undersized 14" is not diagnostic.
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-29-2017, 09:34 PM
grantro grantro is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,122
Cool Re: Unknown Hi Hats Identification

Thanks for your expertise, Zen!!

Both cymbals are 13-15/16" in diameter...I can see faint hammering when held up on an angle to the light...

What kind of value would you put to them?

Cheers
__________________
1976 Ludwig Mach 4 Thermogloss 26-18-14-14sn
1971 Ludwig Classic Bowling Ball OBP 22-16-14-13
1978 Ludwig Stainless 22-22-18-16-14-13-12 c/w 6-8-10-12-13-14-15-16-18-20-22-24 concert toms
1960's Stewart Peacock Pearl 20-16-12-14sn
1980`s Ludwig Coliseum Piano Black 8x14 snare
1973 Rogers Superten 5x14 & 6.5x14 COS snares
1954 Rogers Classmate 4x13 snare
1970`s John Grey Capri Aquamarine Sparkle 5x14 snare
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-29-2017, 10:28 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,517
Default Re: Unknown Hi Hats Identification

Sorry but I haven't collected any data on prices for these. Here's a similar pair with 16 watchers

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-UFI...EAAOSwOKZZlqa~

but nobody has sprung yet at $99. But it does give another view of the stepped lathing along with the made in italy ink stamp.

Looking at completed listings, wetting my finger and waving it in the breeze, and consulting my A Zildjian hat pricing I'm thinking $60 - $80. It depends on how fast you want it to move. These Italian cymbals are very nice sounding (I have a pair myself) but they can't compete with that Zildjian brand name. Those of us who know how nice they are keep an eye out, but the lack of clear brand info means most people aren't interested.
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-29-2017, 10:30 PM
grantro grantro is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,122
Cool Re: Unknown Hi Hats Identification

This is exactly the info I was seeking...Thanks again!!

Cheers
__________________
1976 Ludwig Mach 4 Thermogloss 26-18-14-14sn
1971 Ludwig Classic Bowling Ball OBP 22-16-14-13
1978 Ludwig Stainless 22-22-18-16-14-13-12 c/w 6-8-10-12-13-14-15-16-18-20-22-24 concert toms
1960's Stewart Peacock Pearl 20-16-12-14sn
1980`s Ludwig Coliseum Piano Black 8x14 snare
1973 Rogers Superten 5x14 & 6.5x14 COS snares
1954 Rogers Classmate 4x13 snare
1970`s John Grey Capri Aquamarine Sparkle 5x14 snare
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-03-2017, 03:33 PM
Chromeo Chromeo is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,209
Default Re: Unknown Hi Hats Identification

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
That sort of stepped lathing is found on some Italian cymbals. I've watched a production video and you can see the UFIP guys doing the lathing in distinct steps with a brief pause in between.



The area in the red circle shows another feature found on Italian cymbals. There can be zones of very fine lathe chatter. The diagnosis of chatter if from master cymbalmaker Matt Nolan who has observed it happening on his own lathe. Although these Italian cymbals tend to be hammered, it can sometimes be very broad and shallow are hard to see (or photograph).

Another test of Italian origin is the diameter. They tended to make cymbals in a metric diameter so instead of exactly 14" they will be 35cm (slightly undersized). On the other hand, if 13" they will seem full sized because 13" is 33.02 cm. But you do have to remember that other manufacturing regions (China and Turkey) also produced undersized cymbals too, so simply being an undersized 14" is not diagnostic.
Zenstats, the above image was a no name cymbal that I once owned. I The photo was from the seller on ebay. I posted it online after buying it. I was hoping to get some help identifying it before it arrived. We all thought it was a UFiP of some sort, but I can asure you that that cymbal was not a UFIP. It was a B20 cymbal, but it was some sort of a WUHAN. I'm certain it was not a UFIP. I just wanted to let you know. We should stop referring to that cymbal as a UFIP.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-03-2017, 03:41 PM
Chromeo Chromeo is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,209
Default Re: Unknown Hi Hats Identification

Here's my old, paper thin UFIP pyramid stamp, 50cm (20"-ish) 1557 grams
This cymbal has the "stepped lathing" My 15" CMI hats have similar grooves.

BTW, I think the cymbals in question are indeed Italian and they look like they could be B20. The top lathing looks like the bottom lathing on my CMI hats.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	5.jpg
Views:	13
Size:	75.7 KB
ID:	114542  

Last edited by Chromeo; 12-03-2017 at 03:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-03-2017, 06:30 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,517
Default Re: Unknown Hi Hats Identification

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chromeo View Post
Zenstats, the above image was a no name cymbal that I once owned. I The photo was from the seller on ebay. I posted it online after buying it. I was hoping to get some help identifying it before it arrived. We all thought it was a UFiP of some sort, but I can asure you that that cymbal was not a UFIP. It was a B20 cymbal, but it was some sort of a WUHAN. I'm certain it was not a UFIP. I just wanted to let you know. We should stop referring to that cymbal as a UFIP.
Just to clarify, I might have said Italian but I wouldn't usually claim UFIP as the specific company of origin unless it could be positively identified as coming from the UFIP factory. But it's most interesting to hear you say it turned out to be Chinese in origin. How did you decide that?

I've got some other Italian cymbals photos which do have their Made In Italy ink stamp on them so I'll see about annotating one of those and switch to using that as an example of the stepped lathing. It wouldn't surprise me if the stepped lathing turned up on Chinese cymbals, as I've already got examples of it on other brands.

Interesting looking 20" pyramid stamp. I've got 3 of those myself and they run from light to very light: 1836g, 1725g, 1675g. The two lightest ones are from the earlier era of steep sided bells and obvious over hammering:



__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 12-03-2017 at 06:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-03-2017, 07:26 PM
Chromeo Chromeo is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,209
Default Re: Unknown Hi Hats Identification

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
Just to clarify, I might have said Italian but I wouldn't usually claim UFIP as the specific company of origin unless it could be positively identified as coming from the UFIP factory. But it's most interesting to hear you say it turned out to be Chinese in origin. How did you decide that?

I've got some other Italian cymbals photos which do have their Made In Italy ink stamp on them so I'll see about annotating one of those and switch to using that as an example of the stepped lathing. It wouldn't surprise me if the stepped lathing turned up on Chinese cymbals, as I've already got examples of it on other brands.

Interesting looking 20" pyramid stamp. I've got 3 of those myself and they run from light to very light: 1836g, 1725g, 1675g. The two lightest ones are from the earlier era of steep sided bells and obvious over hammering:



Underside of 15" CMI bottom Hi Hat.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20171203_214658_resized_20171204_012004442.jpg
Views:	17
Size:	111.8 KB
ID:	114546  
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-03-2017, 07:35 PM
Chromeo Chromeo is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,209
Default Re: Unknown Hi Hats Identification

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
Sorry but I haven't collected any data on prices for these. Here's a similar pair with 16 watchers.
Would you happen to know anything about a cymbal trademark that features some sort of insect? I have posted a thread about it in the vintage cymbals section. It has me completely stumped. I'm think it's something similar to a Zanchi which also has an unusual trademark. The cymbal in question also has stepped lathing.
Cheers
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2009 VSDwebdesign