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  #11  
Old 10-20-2020, 10:35 AM
O-Lugs O-Lugs is offline
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Default Re: Help please--paper tags, and what model is my Rogers?

Speaking of contradiction...IF named configurations don't mean anything, then why are you referring to kit that you designed in your own imagination, as being a named configuration? If a "Top Hat" configuration was named that by the company and then pictured a certain way, then how is it a Top Hat with completely different sized drums? It's not a Top Hat.

But, AGAIN...the Top Hat wrap is desirable on it's own...which puts it into a more specialized area of collecting -namely rare wraps/finishes -to which, I have already specified as being an exceptional (and separate) category of collecting....as is the same with celebrity configurations (like Ringo or Bonham used). Yes, there are exceptions. Personally, I'd buy ANY Citrus Mod drums or sets regardless of the configuration because of this exception. But, it would be SO much better IF it would be a named configuration, too!

As far as configurations go...why even refer to a non-specific, invented-by-you-configuration, as a named configuration. Why call it a Londoner, Top Hat, etc. if the names don't mean anything specific?

Furthermore, if (hypothetically), back in the day, I would have desired a Ludwig Supraphonic snare drum -except without all the chrome and I wanted it with 8 bowtie lugs instead of 10 Classic lugs, then that would mean that I wasn't ordering a custom Supraphonic. I'd just order an Acrolite!

If you change the configuration, then you possibly change the name, too. Or, you just have your own, personal configuration....and nothing wrong with that -other than that it will never be as collectible as a named configuration with a catalog reference.
Another example of this is the Ludwig "Super Classic"....When Ludwig came out with the Atlas line of hardware, they made a configuration to showcase the new line and they called it the "Deluxe Classic. It was ALMOST exactly the same as the Super Classic....except they did away with the shell-mounted cymbal holder on the bass drum. That's how you would know if the kit was a Super Classic or a Deluxe Classic if you saw a shell pack for sale (without the rest of the hardware).
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Last edited by O-Lugs; 10-20-2020 at 11:03 AM.
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  #12  
Old 10-20-2020, 11:02 AM
O-Lugs O-Lugs is offline
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Default Re: Help please--paper tags, and what model is my Rogers?

People USED TO go into _____________'s Drum Shop and do all kinds of crazy things back in the day. If a drummer didn't care for the Rogers throw off on their Dynasonic, then they could have had a Ludwig P83 put on, instead....and no one would have blinked. But fast forward to NOW....The drummers who did NOT customize a standard, cataloged drum or set have a more valuable item, NOW. And all those "little" changes that drummers made on their own, BACK THEN, only detract from the potential value, NOW.

No one has ever disputed what drummers USED TO do.
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Last edited by O-Lugs; 10-20-2020 at 11:06 AM.
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  #13  
Old 10-20-2020, 11:24 AM
idrum4fun idrum4fun is offline
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Default Re: Help please--paper tags, and what model is my Rogers?

I completely understand the two points of view from both leedybdp and O-Lugs. I would like to expand on the concept of "catalog" kits and changing sizes from those listed in the description.

As an example, I'm going to use catalogs we may all be familiar with...Ludwig 67, Rogers 67-68 and Slingerland 68.

Looking through each catalog, I found no reference to any statements saying that "the specs of pictured drum sets are subject to change and that any pictured drum set can be ordered with different size drums".

The Ludwig 67 Catalog gives drum and hardware descriptions consistent with the provided picture for each kit. The only mention of changing out a drum is for the Super Classic kit, which is shown with a Supraphonic, but mentions that it can be ordered with a matching pearl snare drum for the same price. So, if you wanted, say, a Blue Note kit, that shows with a matching Jazz Festival only, but you want a Supraphonic, is it still a cataloged Blue Note kit?

Moving on to the Rogers 67-68. I have the edition with Buddy and Louie on the back! Again, all the kit descriptions are in keeping with the provided pictures. The only exception to ordering a different snare drum is when the kit comes with a Powertone, either COB or wood, and it's mentioned that a Dynsonic snare drum is optional. So, if you change the size of any other drum, whether a tom or bass drum, is it still the catalog kit?

Finally, we come to Slingerland. My very first catalog was the 68, which is actually for year 1967. On page 1, Slingerland does include the following statement..."The Slingerland Drum Co. is constantly improving its quality, design and production in order to supply the ever increasing demand for its products".

The very popular Gene Krupa Deluxe Outfit No. 1N includes a picture showing what is obviously a 14x22 bass drum, yet the description of what's included clearly states that the kit comes with a 14x20 bass drum. However, there is also mention of the following substitutions...a 14x22 bass drum, the 940 Snap-On pedal and the #130 metal shell snare drum.

What all this highlights is the fact that each company allows for substitutions to their catalog kits. Now, here is where the tough part comes in. Just because a substitution isn't specifically mentioned for any particular catalog kit and a buyer wants to make substitutions, is it still the catalog kit? I'll leave that quandary to each individual to make.

My personal take, for what it's worth, is that substitution of a specific snare drum or bass drum size from the catalog description is still the catalog kit. So, if you order a Londoner with a larger bass drum, it's still a Londoner. If you ordered a Ludwig Super Classic outfit with a snare drum other than the Jazz Festival or Supraphonic, it's still a Super Classic outfit. The same holds true for Slingerland.

Where I take exception is when the tom sizes are changed. If you decided you like the Hollywood configuration, but go with 9x13, 10x14 and 16x18 toms, is it still a Hollywood configuration? Not really! Ludwig would eventually call this configuration the Pro Beat, which also included a 24" bass drum. But, you could also order the Pro Beat with a 22" bass drum!

I really think that the bottom line for the majority of us getting drums in the late 60's is that we liked the selection of catalog kits and most of us never even thought about making substitutions!

As always, everyone's take on this is welcomed and appreciated!

-Mark

Last edited by idrum4fun; 10-20-2020 at 11:28 AM. Reason: spelling
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  #14  
Old 10-20-2020, 11:31 AM
leedybdp leedybdp is offline
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Default Re: Help please--paper tags, and what model is my Rogers?

Let's quit the nit-picking. You want a drum set to be exactly as it's pictured in a catalog with maybe a different wrap. Even though the manufacturer clearly states (maybe in small print) that other drum sizes can be substituted for the drums in the "Super Colossal Dynamite Garbonzo Bean Touring model drum outfit. The catalog does not state that a substitution of a drum size will mean that the drum set loses its catalog name.
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  #15  
Old 10-20-2020, 11:49 AM
O-Lugs O-Lugs is offline
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Default Re: Help please--paper tags, and what model is my Rogers?

Well, when it comes to switching out the bass drum....If you switch out the 18 X 12 bass drum for a Ludwig Jazzette kit, then you definitely don't have a Jazzette kit! So, I'm not sure that I could agree with switching out the bass drum size for a Londoner kit and it still being a Londoner.

I'd like to pose this as a question: What if you saw TWO Top Hat kits on Ebay, etc....and one is the EXACT kit they used for the picture in the catalog....and the other is one like leedybdp has described as being more desirable to him, personally..They are priced the same but you can only afford to invest in one of them...Which one do you buy?
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  #16  
Old 10-20-2020, 11:56 AM
O-Lugs O-Lugs is offline
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Default Re: Help please--paper tags, and what model is my Rogers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leedybdp View Post
Let's quit the nit-picking. You want a drum set to be exactly as it's pictured in a catalog with maybe a different wrap. Even though the manufacturer clearly states (maybe in small print) that other drum sizes can be substituted for the drums in the "Super Colossal Dynamite Garbonzo Bean Touring model drum outfit. The catalog does not state that a substitution of a drum size will mean that the drum set loses its catalog name.
Oh it does definitely mean that the configuration changes it's name (or creates a new un-named configuration) in many instances. A Jazzette isn't a Jazzette if it has a 22" bass drum. A Super Classic doesn't have am 18" bass drum...and so on.
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