Vintage Drum Forum the best vintage drum forum on the Internet - Vintage Drum History - Vintage Drum Questions

Go Back   Vintage Drum Forum > Vintage Drums

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-21-2018, 01:27 PM
drumact drumact is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Northern CA.
Posts: 15
Send a message via ICQ to drumact Send a message via Skype™ to drumact
Default Ludwig Keystone Badge headscratcher

I am curious about a Ludwig Keystone badge on a Super Sensitive snare drum. The badge has the Ludwig script logo with crossed drumsticks.
Below the air vent hole, is written: "Ludwig Drum Company" and under that is written "Made in USA".
The badge is typical gold color, and has no serial number.
Can anyone offer information on this badge with respect to era etc?
Thank You!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2018-03-20 at 9.49.09 AM.jpg
Views:	81
Size:	20.4 KB
ID:	117463  
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-21-2018, 02:49 PM
Purdie Shuffle Purdie Shuffle is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Reading, PA
Posts: 8,852
Default Re: Ludwig Keystone Badge headscratcher

1959 Ludwig used the Transition badge. In 1960 and 61 they used un-numbered keystone badges (pre-serial badges) like the one you showed. I have a 1961 Sky Blue Pearl kit and all the drums have un-numbered keystone badges. The numbered keystone badge system kicked in 61'/62'.

John
__________________
Too many great drums to list here!

http://www.walbergandauge.com/VintageVenue.htm
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-21-2018, 03:45 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,440
Default Re: Ludwig Keystone Badge headscratcher

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purdie Shuffle View Post
1959 Ludwig used the Transition badge. In 1960 and 61 they used un-numbered keystone badges (pre-serial badges) like the one you showed. I have a 1961 Sky Blue Pearl kit and all the drums have un-numbered keystone badges. The numbered keystone badge system kicked in 61'/62'.

John
Here is a little more to the story.

This badge is interesting because it is what Gier calls a K2 keystone badge. The K1 lacks the little registered trademark symbol . The K2 has it. K2 badges have a serial number. Based on his data analysis Gier, put the changeover from K1 to K2 in 1964 at around serial 59500. Serial numbers started around November 1963 on K1 badges. I've got a pre serial K1 snare drum with a date stamp of Nov 18, 1963.



My snare is one of the later known pre serial badged drums, but there are others with date stamps from 1963.

I'll PM Rick because this may be new information that there is a K2 without a serial number. Such anomalies don't keep us awake at night, but they help inform our research and caution against oversimplified stories. Rick will probably ask for other information, including whether or not your drum has a date stamp and other details.

reference: Gier, Richard 2013, "Serial Number Based Dating Guides for Vintage Ludwig Drums". Rebeats, Alma Michigan.
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-21-2018, 03:54 PM
Purdie Shuffle Purdie Shuffle is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Reading, PA
Posts: 8,852
Default Re: Ludwig Keystone Badge headscratcher

Zen - Great info! Following the Ludwig badge system (such as it is) is like going down a deep rabbit hole. No rhyme or reason...

John
__________________
Too many great drums to list here!

http://www.walbergandauge.com/VintageVenue.htm
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-21-2018, 04:04 PM
drumact drumact is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Northern CA.
Posts: 15
Send a message via ICQ to drumact Send a message via Skype™ to drumact
Default Re: Ludwig Keystone Badge headscratcher

I always see "Chicago" on these badges, I had never noticed just "made in USA" before. But if this is a '60 or '61 un numbered badge, would that make this a chrome over brass drum? I am seeing no pitting on the chrome at all.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-21-2018, 04:19 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,440
Default Re: Ludwig Keystone Badge headscratcher

Oh. This was a stealth "is my supraphonic snare made of brass?" question. That's an entirely different rabbit hole. Do you have the snare in your hands or is it for sale somewhere? That influences which of the 14 questions on the "brass vs aluminum shell checklist" are worth asking.
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-21-2018, 05:43 PM
KCDrumDad KCDrumDad is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 506
Default Re: Ludwig Keystone Badge headscratcher

I have not seen that badge before on a vintage drum. It also does not look like the reproduction badges I have seen available. Does it have texture to it? It looks more like a flat badge with etching on the surface from the one picture.
__________________
Collecting information about the following for ongoing research projects:
Gretsch drums with serial numbers,
Ludwig Keystone and B/O badge drums with serial numbers and date stamps,
Ludwig Standards from 1968-73, and
Ludwigs with paper labels from 1971-72
www.GretschDrumDatingGuide.com
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-21-2018, 06:09 PM
drumact drumact is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Northern CA.
Posts: 15
Send a message via ICQ to drumact Send a message via Skype™ to drumact
Default Re: Ludwig Keystone Badge headscratcher

Yeah, I guess that was a stealth COB question!
I will have the drum in my hands this weekend.

So far I've got these facts:
- No serial number on badge, no mention of Chicago....
- No tone control, or evidence of one (either knob or bat or drilled holes)
- Really nice finish with no pitting at all in evidence. (i've been told all Ludalloy of any older age generally show finish issues)

I have heard the scraping test (at screw hole for tension casing; scraped to see if brass is underneath)
Also, the weight test...brass should be heavier. I have a black beauty to use as a reference.
At the end of the day, I just want it to sound great!
Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-21-2018, 07:16 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,440
Default Re: Ludwig Keystone Badge headscratcher

Quote:
Originally Posted by KCDrumDad View Post
I have not seen that badge before on a vintage drum. It also does not look like the reproduction badges I have seen available. Does it have texture to it? It looks more like a flat badge with etching on the surface from the one picture.
Yes I was wondering about the reproduction badges Rick. That photo wasn't great and it hadn't yet been revealed that this might be an attempt to create the impression of a COB snare. I look forward to seeing the rest of the details so we can see if everything is period correct or we've got a frankensnare.

Update: this thread suggests it is a modern but genuine badge: http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...d.php?t=112094
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 03-21-2018 at 07:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-21-2018, 07:25 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,440
Default Re: Ludwig Keystone Badge headscratcher

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumact View Post
Yeah, I guess that was a stealth COB question!
I will have the drum in my hands this weekend.

So far I've got these facts:
- No serial number on badge, no mention of Chicago....
- No tone control, or evidence of one (either knob or bat or drilled holes)
- Really nice finish with no pitting at all in evidence. (i've been told all Ludalloy of any older age generally show finish issues)

I have heard the scraping test (at screw hole for tension casing; scraped to see if brass is underneath)
Also, the weight test...brass should be heavier. I have a black beauty to use as a reference.
At the end of the day, I just want it to sound great!
Thanks!
Well if you've got a Beauty Beauty to weigh it against that should settle the matter to a reasonable level of accuracy (more than 99%). I've been an advocate of this technique, but I'm still having trouble getting reliable and consistent weights out of others so I can continue with my modelling work: http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=61106

It is also possible that it is a modern Brass (or aluminum) Shell with some vintage (or modern) hardware on it. This thread suggests it is a modern but genuine badge: http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...d.php?t=112094

Lack of any pitting is not reliable enough on its own to give 99% confidence. Lack of a tone control (or a hole for one) suggests modern. My 2002 Black Beauty doesn't have a tone control but I don't know what year they were removed (or made optional?) on Supras, etc.

I'd also be interested to know if it has a "B" or "BZ" or "BR" anywhere. We can't say "near the tone control", but I've heard of some hidden under the strainer or buttplate.



And if you read that thread reporting on my attempts at doing shell science, I do now have my new micrometer and both of my snares remain disassembled for more research work. My initial attempts at replicating Ludwig shell thickness and getting accurate mass for shells didn't get close enough. I decided I needed to make progress on some other projects, but I'll come back to this one when I get a few other things out of the way.

But in the meantime any more data would help.
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 03-21-2018 at 07:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2009 VSDwebdesign