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  #11  
Old 04-16-2020, 10:39 AM
drumfx drumfx is offline
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Default Re: Innovative designs that attempted to "improve" upon tradition.

I have never owned a Peavey kit nor have i played one of those snares but i did play a 4 pc. radial kit on a tv show that was one of the backline kits and it sounded absolutely great. Maximum tone and sustain and i didn't really change anything tuning wise when i got there. The only thing i did was to remove the snare in order to use my wood dynasonic but then i saw a first generation Ayotte snare on a case beside the drumkit among others. i decided to do the soundcheck with that one and ended up keeping it for the gig. The Radial kit combined with the Ayotte wood hoop snare sounded very good indeed. I got the roadie (who plays really well) to play the kit and i went in the audience to hear it live. That sealed it for that night for me.
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Last edited by drumfx; 04-16-2020 at 10:48 AM.
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  #12  
Old 04-16-2020, 12:33 PM
O-Lugs O-Lugs is offline
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Default Re: Innovative designs that attempted to "improve" upon tradition.

I think it's clear that there were some rather eccentric ideas that have come and gone. Making shells of different shapes and coming up with a new way to apply tension to a drumhead are about the only things that you can do to a drum before it becomes something other than a drum. We have seen Trixon, North, Molecules (bubble-shaped) drums -all experimenting with altering the shape of the shell in order to achieve something new.

*Keep in mind....ALL these drum designs must work with the available drumheads that are out there on the market. The exception is the egg-shaped Trixon bass drumheads....Good luck finding a replacement on the road!

Practicality isn't always the priority with drums. Sometimes, they can be completely impractical...but remain totally enjoyable. Who wouldn't at least want to try playing a Corder or a North kit if it was sitting there?

I admire the Ivor Arbiters and Elon Musks of the world because they can make ideas materialize -no matter how out there they may seem to be. By contrast, MY ideas just remain in the ethers of my mind....but I swear I've had a few good ones....wish I could remember them! heh heh
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  #13  
Old 04-16-2020, 12:46 PM
O-Lugs O-Lugs is offline
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Default Re: Innovative designs that attempted to "improve" upon tradition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumfx View Post
I have never owned a Peavey kit nor have i played one of those snares but i did play a 4 pc. radial kit on a tv show that was one of the backline kits and it sounded absolutely great. Maximum tone and sustain and i didn't really change anything tuning wise when i got there. The only thing i did was to remove the snare in order to use my wood dynasonic but then i saw a first generation Ayotte snare on a case beside the drumkit among others. i decided to do the soundcheck with that one and ended up keeping it for the gig. The Radial kit combined with the Ayotte wood hoop snare sounded very good indeed. I got the roadie (who plays really well) to play the kit and i went in the audience to hear it live. That sealed it for that night for me.
Totally had the same reaction when I heard the Peavey RP1000 toms and bass drums...THEY sounded fantastic. I mean I was kinda startled at how good they sounded in the music store amongst all the other kits that didn't sound as good in the same environment.

I will say that I have seen a few USED Peavey RP 1000 kits and they do not "wear" well. The wood radial bridges always get dinged and the shells are SO thin (2.5 mm!!!!). Plus, as I mentioned, the metal parts are cheap...crap. But, wow, the sound of those toms!!!
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  #14  
Old 04-16-2020, 01:33 PM
DownTownFarmer DownTownFarmer is offline
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Default Re: Innovative designs that attempted to "improve" upon tradition.

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Originally Posted by O-Lugs View Post
No doubt!

But...here's the thing...I'd never want anyone to design a drum that is naturally muted sounding...because many of those exist already! You can always take away resonance after the fact....like 9 out of 10 drummers will do...but you can't add it....I mean, yes, the mounts can affect resonance, too, I guess...but we will save mounting systems for another thread.

One of the big ideas behind these tuning systems is/was to try and keep the shell as round as possible without torquing it into a wobbly shape. Peavey approached the problem with the radial bridges and Arbiter did it with SUPER thick shells and a continuous ring that encircled the entire shell and distributed the tension uniformly. Gaither came up with a way of transferring the tension to a separate structure altogether. And Pearl...well Pearl's system was really heavy and clunky and (to my ear) did the exact opposite of what it was supposed to do...namely choked the resonance. To my knowledge, they only applied it to snare drums and not to toms.

Good point on the resonance issue. I've never worried about a drum shell de-forming from head-tension but I guess it's a thing.
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  #15  
Old 04-16-2020, 07:41 PM
O-Lugs O-Lugs is offline
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Default Re: Innovative designs that attempted to "improve" upon tradition.

Yes, exactly. I would have never even considered the idea of shell deformation under tension as being a problem....but I guess when you are the one trying to see what could be improved upon for such a simple and primitive instrument as a drum, then you are looking at things under a microscope. These things really have never been a problem, but many of the innovators try to (somewhat) create a problem and then try and fix it! I suppose this is the challenge to all designers.
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  #16  
Old 04-16-2020, 07:53 PM
O-Lugs O-Lugs is offline
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Default Re: Innovative designs that attempted to "improve" upon tradition.

Sometimes, a drum designer will get it jusssst right. For example: Although they may not be every drummers "cup of tea", it has become generally accepted that a Gretsch bop kit is THE most desirable instrument to own if you align yourself with a certain type of jazz. I can't argue the fact that they sound great in that application. I don't know what it is, exactly...probably the gum wood used in the shells...maybe the combination of the die cast rims and the shells and lack of reinforcement rings....maybe the silver paint! But they have a sound all their own.

Another example: The Ludwig Supraphonic snare drum. It ticks all the boxes as far as what a snare drum is....and it's beautiful!

The DW 5000 bass drum pedal....


These things just "got it right"....through the same kind of innovative thinking that the wild ideas come from, too.


Some of the older examples of this are seen in things like the collapsable bass drum...the Slingerland snare drums with the banjo resonator things... the drums that you can tune by turning a knob on the shell and the corresponding, complex, internal structure....kind of the way a timpani works...which is also an innovative way to tension a drumhead!
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  #17  
Old 04-16-2020, 10:45 PM
DrumBob DrumBob is offline
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Default Re: Innovative designs that attempted to "improve" upon tradition.

Most drummers are, by nature, fairly conservative human beings who like drums that look like traditional drums, not empty spools of thread, trumpet bells, pairs of shorts, or anything else outlandish. They also don't like drums with oddball tuning systems. Ritchie's Music has a set in stock right now that has a metal cable tuning system you wind with a key. They look and sound terrific, but what if a cable breaks on a gig? You're f*****. I was talking with the store owner and he recognized that fact. I don't remember the brand name.
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'64 Slingerland, 13/16/20/22 (to be restored)
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'73 Slingerland, Sky Blue Pearl, 12/13/16/22
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'74 Slingerland Gold Sparkle, 13/14/18/24
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  #18  
Old 04-17-2020, 01:04 AM
hardbat hardbat is offline
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Default Re: Innovative designs that attempted to "improve" upon tradition.

That pedal is cool!
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  #19  
Old 04-17-2020, 08:32 AM
leedybdp leedybdp is online now
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Default Re: Innovative designs that attempted to "improve" upon tradition.

Two massive innovations by Rogers back in the late 1950's and in the early 1970's are still the most copied drum hardware designs. The Swivomatic hardware ball and socket system and the MemrlLoc large diameter tubular system are the basis of just about every drum hardware system that has been produced since those innovations.
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  #20  
Old 04-17-2020, 10:02 AM
O-Lugs O-Lugs is offline
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Default Re: Innovative designs that attempted to "improve" upon tradition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumBob View Post
Most drummers are, by nature, fairly conservative human beings who like drums that look like traditional drums, not empty spools of thread, trumpet bells, pairs of shorts, or anything else outlandish. They also don't like drums with oddball tuning systems. Ritchie's Music has a set in stock right now that has a metal cable tuning system you wind with a key. They look and sound terrific, but what if a cable breaks on a gig? You're f*****. I was talking with the store owner and he recognized that fact. I don't remember the brand name.
Yeah...heard this about a billion times...almost verbatim every time, too. But a lugged drum really (was) a very advanced tuning system in its day. Before that, drums were rope tensioned or the heads were even tacked in place. Words like "outlandish" are as antiquated as a hollow log.

In my opinion, innovation should never stop -regardless of what traditionalist drummers might think....most of them don't know $h!t anyway (when it comes to designing something) It happens to be that Emil Boulanger's idea was an incredible innovation in its day and ever since then, tensioning systems for drums have been lug-centric. But, that direction could have gone completely differently if another tuning system would have come about at that time. Who's to say? Traditionalists are often the people who have their head up their a$$ until someone comes along and pulls it out for them.
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Last edited by O-Lugs; 04-17-2020 at 10:10 AM.
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