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  #21  
Old 06-02-2009, 02:32 AM
GiantBeater GiantBeater is offline
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Default Re: True Original Bonham Toms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludwig-dude View Post
GiantBeater....do YOUR homework! The thermo-gloss maple kit was originally a double bass kit, an exact duplicate of Carmine Appice's kit from 1968 when he played with Vanilla Fudge. Zeppelin opened for them and Bonham was so impressed with Carmine and his kit that he wanted one exactly like it. Sizes were: 12x15, 2-14x26, 6 1/2x14 supraphonic, and 16x18 floor tom. Later the rest of Zeppelin told Bonzo two bass drums was too much, so he took it away and added the 16x16 floor tom. Ludwig never made a 12x14 rack tom or marching tenor for that matter. The sizes they offered were 10x14 or 12x15. Since Carmine has documented many times over the years what that kit was as far as specs go, I'm inclined to believe him. Big rack tom was 12x15. Just look at the pics.......definately 12x15.

Later on the green sparkle kit had a smaller rack tom-10x14, as did the amber vistalite kit. With the stainless steel kit he reverted BACK to a 12x15.

The new USA made Zep kits are 10x14, with the exception being the reissue stainless steel kits, which has the 12x15 tom. Accent Zep kits have a 9x13, so its not a true Zep kit.......

Anything else you want to try and stump me at?
yeah, ur a dumb**** for one. Todd Trent from Ludwig has CONFIRMED it to be a 12x14, the other dumbass from Roxy Music cut the tom down from a 12x14 to a 10x14 for some ungodly reason. Just because Ludwig did not offer the drum, does not mean that it would not have been special ordered. NONE of those reissues are true Zeppelin Kits anyways because they are not, you guessed it. 3 ply. The stainless steel kit is the closest to the original. Do you really think I didnt know all those facts about Bonham's drums? I bet you didnt know that bonhams next drumkit he ordered before he died included a 24'' black sparkle 6 ply bass drum


http://www.griptoad.com/JBKITS.html
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Last edited by GiantBeater; 06-02-2009 at 02:44 AM.
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  #22  
Old 06-02-2009, 07:18 AM
Ludwig-dude Ludwig-dude is offline
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Default Re: True Original Bonham Toms

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Originally Posted by GiantBeater View Post
yeah, ur a dumb**** for one. Todd Trent from Ludwig has CONFIRMED it to be a 12x14, the other dumbass from Roxy Music cut the tom down from a 12x14 to a 10x14 for some ungodly reason. Just because Ludwig did not offer the drum, does not mean that it would not have been special ordered. NONE of those reissues are true Zeppelin Kits anyways because they are not, you guessed it. 3 ply. The stainless steel kit is the closest to the original. Do you really think I didnt know all those facts about Bonham's drums? I bet you didnt know that bonhams next drumkit he ordered before he died included a 24'' black sparkle 6 ply bass drum


http://www.griptoad.com/JBKITS.html
I'm a dumba$$? Ok....did YOU study with Carmine for one? Did YOU get to see the actual Vanilla Fudge kit? Its a 12x15. Why would Ludwig let an unknown drummer at the time special order such a size? The odds of them letting that happen are pretty slim, expecially when talking about 3-ply drums. Its an off the rack 12x15 marching tenor converted to a rack tom. Yes I did know that Bonham's last kit was going to be 6ply...all Ludwig wood drums by then were 6ply. Yes I did know that it was going to be black sparkle and a 24" kick....its a well known fact. Did you know that the SILVER SPARKLE kit that he played briefly between the vistalites and the stainless kit were also 6ply? So that would make todays Zep sets accurate representations of Bonzo's kit. BTW, Todd Trent is NOT the end all and be all of Ludwig.....he is nothing but a marketing guy, not a historian.

Get YOUR facts straight before you call someone a dumba$$. Go call up and ask Carmine the specs of his VF kit......he'll tell you the same thing.....12x15, 2-14x26, 16x18, 6 1/2x14 supraphonic. Even he'll tell you they were marching drums that he ordered from Ludwig off the rack that he had them fit outfit hardware to. Go back and watch your Zeppelin DVD again....look closely at the rack tom during Moby Dick at the Royal Albert Hall......it is clearly LARGER IN DIAMETER THAN HIS SNARE DRUM. ITS A 15" DRUM. 12x15.

BTW....the "guy from Roxy Music" was Paul Thompson......and he did NOT cut down the rack tom. It was lost or damaged while on the road and he replaced it with a maple finish 10x14.

Done and Done





Now.....can we get back to what the original poster is trying to sell? What are these drums and WHY are they supposed to be Bonham drums?
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Last edited by Ludwig-dude; 06-02-2009 at 08:03 AM.
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  #23  
Old 06-02-2009, 07:56 AM
Ludwig-dude Ludwig-dude is offline
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Default Re: True Original Bonham Toms

Hear's a clip of Carmine with the kit that HE inspired Bonham to get.....yo can clearly see its a 12x15 tom, also check the thumnail out of Bonham with the maple kit's original specs......

Also, here's the promo film of Communication Breakdown with the kit in its original configuration....you can clearly see that the rack tom is larger in diameter than the snare.....

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Last edited by Ludwig-dude; 08-16-2009 at 11:55 AM.
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  #24  
Old 06-02-2009, 10:38 AM
mcjnic mcjnic is offline
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Default Re: True Original Bonham Toms

Not to whiz on anyone's parade, but you guys do realize that Bonham also had an Octa-Plus kit at his house. Doesn't that make all this goofy banter sort of moot? He's played pretty much every size tom out there at one time or another. It just don't matter.
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  #25  
Old 06-02-2009, 11:55 AM
Ludwig-dude Ludwig-dude is offline
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Default Re: True Original Bonham Toms

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Originally Posted by mcjnic View Post
Not to whiz on anyone's parade, but you guys do realize that Bonham also had an Octa-Plus kit at his house. Doesn't that make all this goofy banter sort of moot? He's played pretty much every size tom out there at one time or another. It just don't matter.
Historically it does matter though......the correct info needs to be shared.
I've attached an excerpt from a feature interview from Modern Drummer April 2007 issue (pages 60 & 61 if you have the issue in your archive) on Carmine, pretty much straight from the horse's mouth, which should put an end to the debate on what size tom the Maple Bonzo kit had.
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Last edited by Ludwig-dude; 08-16-2009 at 11:55 AM.
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  #26  
Old 06-02-2009, 03:31 PM
dhuelsing dhuelsing is offline
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Default Re: True Original Bonham Toms

And they call Trekkies geeks....GET A LIFE
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  #27  
Old 06-02-2009, 04:54 PM
Ludwig-dude Ludwig-dude is offline
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Default Re: True Original Bonham Toms

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Originally Posted by dhuelsing View Post
And they call Trekkies geeks....GET A LIFE
Was that really called for? I mean, if you don't like the posts, move on and read another one. I'm just trying to inform others with the CORRECT information.
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Last edited by Ludwig-dude; 06-02-2009 at 04:58 PM.
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  #28  
Old 06-03-2009, 10:33 PM
mlvibes mlvibes is offline
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Default Re: True Original Bonham Toms

This is very interesting, and I hope to further this discussion without any name-calling. No one is a "dumb ***," we're just trying to get the facts straight, so let's be respectful here.

It has long been assumed by most Bonham fans that the rack tom on the natural maple kit was a 12x14, with 10 lugs. Not a factory Ludwig size at the time, so it would have to have been custom ordered. Not out of the question, since the whole set was kind of a custom order anyway.

Paul Thompson, of Roxy Music, did indeed purchase the set, and has been quoted as saying that it came with both 13" and 14" toms. Todd Trent has also stated that it was a 12x14. Most sources now list the size of that tom as a 12x14.

Ludwig-dude, however, has a very compelling argument that the tom may have instead been a 12x15. This makes sense for a few reasons:

1.) It was the size of the rack tom on Carmine Appice's kit, which Bonham wanted for himself, as proven in the above quote.
2.) It was a factory cataloged size at the time.
3.) It could still fit in a Ludwig Atlas snare basket as shown in photos.

Now, based on these facts, I would tend to go with Ludwig-dude's assessment, that it was indeed a 12x15. I choose to not use the film clips as evidence, since most sizes and angles are distorted. However, in some of the photos, the rack tom does look a bit too big to be 14" in diameter.

Now, having said that, there is however some evidence that the tom on Paul Thompson's set is the same one shown in photos of Bonham, only cut down. This is strange to me, since the thought of cutting a tom down just doesn't make sense.

Ludwig-dude, do you have a source for the info about Paul losing the original 12x15?

Here's a photo of Paul with the set:



And here's a close up of the rack tom. The arrows are pointing to two distinctive lines in the wood grain:


Ok, now here's a shot of Bonham from 1969:


In a close up shot, you can definitely see how it could be the same drum. The line that the second arrow is pointing to lines up with the bottom of the lug in the Paul Thompson photo, which would make sense if he used the top lug hole as the bottom one when (if) he moved the lug:


There is also a slanted horizontal line above the badge, going from lug to lug, that is very similar on both drums.

Again, not trying to prove anyone wrong or right, just trying to further the discussion.
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  #29  
Old 06-03-2009, 10:43 PM
Ludwig-dude Ludwig-dude is offline
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Default Re: True Original Bonham Toms

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlvibes View Post
This is very interesting, and I hope to further this discussion without any name-calling. No one is a "dumb ***," we're just trying to get the facts straight, so let's be respectful here.

It has long been assumed by most Bonham fans that the rack tom on the natural maple kit was a 12x14, with 10 lugs. Not a factory Ludwig size at the time, so it would have to have been custom ordered. Not out of the question, since the whole set was kind of a custom order anyway.

Paul Thompson, of Roxy Music, did indeed purchase the set, and has been quoted as saying that it came with both 13" and 14" toms. Todd Trent has also stated that it was a 12x14. Most sources now list the size of that tom as a 12x14.

Ludwig-dude, however, has a very compelling argument that the tom may have instead been a 12x15. This makes sense for a few reasons:

1.) It was the size of the rack tom on Carmine Appice's kit, which Bonham wanted for himself, as proven in the above quote.
2.) It was a factory cataloged size at the time.
3.) It could still fit in a Ludwig Atlas snare basket as shown in photos.

Now, based on these facts, I would tend to go with Ludwig-dude's assessment, that it was indeed a 12x15. I choose to not use the film clips as evidence, since most sizes and angles are distorted. However, in some of the photos, the rack tom does look a bit too big to be 14" in diameter.

Now, having said that, there is however some evidence that the tom on Paul Thompson's set is the same one shown in photos of Bonham, only cut down. This is strange to me, since the thought of cutting a tom down just doesn't make sense.

Ludwig-dude, do you have a source for the info about Paul losing the original 12x15?

Here's a photo of Paul with the set:



And here's a close up of the rack tom. The arrows are pointing to two distinctive lines in the wood grain:


Ok, now here's a shot of Bonham from 1969:


In a close up shot, you can definitely see how it could be the same drum. The line that the second arrow is pointing to lines up with the bottom of the lug in the Paul Thompson photo, which would make sense if he used the top lug hole as the bottom one when (if) he moved the lug:


There is also a slanted horizontal line above the badge, going from lug to lug, that is very similar on both drums.

Again, not trying to prove anyone wrong or right, just trying to further the discussion.
It does appear to be the same drum, cut down, but.....it still looks like a 15" drum to me. Why would it be cut down? Maybe it was damaged at some point in time and it was the only way to fix it and save the drum?

No source on that one mlvibes, speculation on my part having known what happens on the road.....
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  #30  
Old 06-03-2009, 11:21 PM
kevins kevins is offline
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Default Re: True Original Bonham Toms

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Originally Posted by dhuelsing View Post
And they call Trekkies geeks....GET A LIFE
HUH???

Tons of great info being shared here....
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