Vintage Drum Forum the best vintage drum forum on the Internet - Vintage Drum History - Vintage Drum Questions

Go Back   Vintage Drum Forum > Vintage Cymbals

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-15-2018, 07:23 AM
ardrummer ardrummer is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 524
Default Vintage Cymbal Looks Like Zildjian but No Stamp????

I got this cymbal recently. It is a 13" (sounds like a crash to me, but could be a hi hat cymbal) and weighs 560grams. I have owned alot of vintage Zildjians and this looks like one to me but there is not stamp at all. The lathing lines that you can see on the pic of the bottom almost have the sectioned off parts (if that makes any sense like an old cb700 (Italian made) cymbal. Any ideas on what it is?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	13_2.jpg
Views:	46
Size:	69.9 KB
ID:	117334   Click image for larger version

Name:	13_.jpg
Views:	41
Size:	70.0 KB
ID:	117335   Click image for larger version

Name:	13.jpg
Views:	49
Size:	71.8 KB
ID:	117336   Click image for larger version

Name:	13_4.jpg
Views:	38
Size:	80.2 KB
ID:	117337  

Click image for larger version

Name:	13_5.jpg
Views:	31
Size:	58.4 KB
ID:	117338  

Last edited by ardrummer; 03-15-2018 at 07:27 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-15-2018, 02:28 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,438
Default Re: Vintage Cymbal Looks Like Zildjian but No Stamp????

That cymbal looks like an A Zildjian to me. Given the lathing style I'd say early 60s, but it's always tricky when there isn't any trademark info to confirm lathing based observations. Bell lathing changes from the 50s to the 60s. In the 1950s style you can see several obvious separate passes so the bell ends up with some fine tonal groove and some more coarse tonal groove in varying proportions. By the 60s bells are more coarse tonal groove, although the bow of the cymbal is often still a bit variable in width of the grooves. By the 70s the lathing tends to be more even on the bell and the bow. Note that these decade descriptions are not meant to suggest that lathing changed dramatically on December 31st at the end of each decade. The differences observed (when you correlate them with trademark stamps) represent changes in the frequency with which you find different sorts of lathing styles.

My gallery of bell lathing styles: http://black.net.nz/avedis/bells.html

The "stepped" lathing on the bottom is a bit different from the Italian style "stepped" lathing in that the Italian style tends to have fine tonal grooves versus that one which has more variable grooves. I've seen video of lathing happening in the UFiP factory and you can see how the lathing is done in discrete bands with the tool pulled back in between. Similarly you can see pauses in the videos of Avedis Zildjian lathing, but they don't tend to be as extreme.

The other thing which can help with the identification of Avedis Zildjian cymbals versus Italian sourced ones is the treatment of the area close to the mounting hole, and the patterns of lathe chatter. Again yours looks more Avedis Zildjian 60s to me than Italian on both counts. The other thing which can help spot Italian cymbals is that they are metric. However, that doesn't help with a 13" cymbal because it just happens that the metric equivalent is 330mm which is so close you aren't likely to pick up a difference.

There are a small proportion of A Zildjian cymbals which escape the factory without a trademark stamp. In my database of about 2000 cymbals the percentage is running about 0.3% (3 in 1000). So why do some not have a trademark? The likely causes are (in no particular order)
  • somebody neglected to carry out that step in the factory
  • it is a second but didn't get an S stamped in, or any other markings
  • the pressing machine was adjusted to be so light that the impression is almost impossible to see
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 03-29-2018 at 02:42 PM. Reason: typo fixed
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-15-2018, 02:42 PM
ardrummer ardrummer is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 524
Default Re: Vintage Cymbal Looks Like Zildjian but No Stamp????

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
That cymbal looks like an A Zildjian to me. Given the lathing style I'd say early 60s, but it's always tricky when there isn't any trademark info to confirm lathing based observations. Bell lathing changes from the 50s to the 60s. In the 1950s style you can see several obvious separate passes so the bell ends up with some fine tonal groove and some more coarse tonal groove in varying proportions. By the 60s bells are more coarse tonal groove, although the bow of the cymbal is often still a bit variable in width of the grooves. By the 70s the lathing tends to be more even on the bell and the bow. Note that these decade descriptions are not meant to suggest that lathing changed dramatically on December 31st at the end of each decade. The differences observed (when you correlate them with trademark stamps) represent changes in the frequency with which you find different sorts of lathing styles.

My gallery of bell lathing styles: http://black.net.nz/avedis/bells.html

The "stepped" lathing on the bottom is a bit different from the Italian style "stepped" lathing in that the Italian style tends to have fine tonal grooves versus that one which has more variable grooves. I've seen video of lathing happening in the UFiP factory and you can see how the lathing is done in discrete bands with the tool pulled back in between. Similarly you can see pauses in the videos of Avedis Zildjian lathing, but they don't tend to be as extreme.

The other thing which can help with the identification of Avedis Zildjian cymbals versus Italian sourced ones is the treatment of the area close to the mounting hole, and the patterns of lathe chatter. Again yours looks more Avedis Zildjian 60s to me than Italian on both counts. The other thing which can help spot Italian cymbals is that they are metric. However, that doesn't help with a 13" cymbal because it just happens that the metric equivalent is 330mm which is so close you aren't likely to pick up a difference.

There are a small proportion of A Zildjian cymbals which escape the factory without a trademark stamp. In my database of about 2000 cymbals the percentage is running about 0.3% (3 in 1000). So why do some not have a trademark? The likely causes are (in no particular order)
  • somebody neglected to carry out that step in the factory
  • it is a second but didn't get an S stamped in, or any other markings
  • the pressing machine was adjusted to be so light that the impression is almost possible to see

Wow....I really appreciate your knowledge/info! As in the past, I knew you would be very helpful. I thought it was a vintage Zildjian but I had never seen one without any stamping at all. I got this cymbal online ($30) and it was labeled as a "miscellaneous" cymbal because of the lack of stamp or marking. Thanks again for the help! I plan to pair this with a 13" A custom bottom I just ordered...hoping it sounds good as a pair.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-23-2018, 07:49 PM
DrumBob DrumBob is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NW NJ
Posts: 303
Default Re: Vintage Cymbal Looks Like Zildjian but No Stamp????

I also have a very nice 20" mystery ride that I'm convinced is an unstamped Zildjian, most likely a 60's. It sounds fine. I bought it for a song from an elderly gent who was a drummer and was selling all his gear.
__________________
'01 DW Collectors Series, Oyster White, 10/12/14/16/22
'64 Slingerland, 13/16/22 (to be restored)
'65 Leedy, Blue Sparkle, 12/14/20
'67 Ludwig, Burgundy Sparkle, 12/13/16/22
'73 Slingerland, Sky Blue Pearl, 12/13/16/22
'60's Crest MIJ, Black Diamond Pearl, 12/14/20
'72 Rogers, Oyster Black, 13/16/22
'70s Tempro, Red Grain Pearl, 12/14/14sn/20
Too many snares to list!

Author of the book, "Great Rock Drummers Of The Sixties."
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-24-2018, 08:30 AM
drummer2012 drummer2012 is offline
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 102
Default Re: Vintage Cymbal Looks Like Zildjian but No Stamp????

Hey Drum Bob,
Must have been a plague of those unmarked Zildjians at one time here in NJ as I've got one too that I picked up from a craiglister in S. Plainfield. Have a mix of Paiste 602's, but mostly Zildjians that were part of the 67 BOP Downbeat kit that I bought from my drum teacher in the early 70's, so I am familiar with how the older Zildjians look. The unmarked Zildjian look alike that I have is a 16", so been using as a crash, but it's a bit heavy. Quite a lineup of drums you've got there. In addition to my 67 kit, I've got a 90's Premier Signia kit that I'm quite fond of. Nice to know I'm in good company here in snowy NW NJ!
__________________
60's Ludwig Vintage
90's Premier Signia
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2009 VSDwebdesign