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  #1  
Old 06-03-2018, 10:55 AM
DH250 DH250 is offline
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Default Vintage Cymbal Identification

This is a 20" cymbal with only the engraved signature as shown. Difficult to identify. Does anyone have any thoughts as to what it might be?
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  #2  
Old 06-03-2018, 03:24 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Vintage Cymbal Identification



The makers very kindly wrote the company name under the bell:

K Zildjian & Cie (or possibly & Co -- Bill Hartrick may know but I've never been sure which version of Company it is).

You will find it easier to pick up the K at the beginning if you turn your "signature" photo the other way up, but I kept mine in the same orientation as yours because that makes the sticker the right way up for legibility.

It is uncommon for these to escape the factory without a pressed in die stamp. Uncommon but not unheard of. I see a white circle on your photo of the top as if somebody thought there might be a pressed in die stamp trademark there. Given the look of this cymbal I'd expect the die stamp trademark to be further out towards the edge, but again that's just a generalization from examining a few hundred of these.
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Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 06-03-2018 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 06-04-2018, 06:41 AM
DH250 DH250 is offline
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Default Re: Vintage Cymbal Identification

You're absolutely right. Went back and found the stamp, it was very faint. Did some research into this particular design and it appears to be c. 1950s.

Wondering about value as we will be looking to find a new owner (this belonged to a family member).
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Last edited by DH250; 06-04-2018 at 06:45 AM.
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  #4  
Old 06-04-2018, 12:11 PM
BosLover BosLover is offline
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Default Re: Vintage Cymbal Identification

Quote:
Originally Posted by DH250 View Post
This is a 20" cymbal with only the engraved signature as shown. Difficult to identify. Does anyone have any thoughts as to what it might be?
By the way, the signature is not engraved, it's signed, presumably by the craftsman who made the cymbal
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Old 06-04-2018, 01:08 PM
andlours andlours is offline
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Default Re: Vintage Cymbal Identification

I'm not up-to-date on my vintage Zildjians, but that cymbal will be worth a fair amount.
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  #6  
Old 06-04-2018, 05:41 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Vintage Cymbal Identification

That matches a Hartrick Old Stamp Type III. Here's a link into my interactive key for identifying these:

http://black.net.nz/old-k/old-k-3.html

I'd say it is a closest match to the Hartrick Type IIIc Old Stamp:



Expected prices for Old Stamps in this diameter are

Old Stamp: Expected median price $1290 with half selling for between $965 and $1600 n=26

Detailed price and weight analysis is here: http://black.net.nz/old-k/old-k-prices.html#20
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For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 06-04-2018 at 06:02 PM.
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  #7  
Old 06-04-2018, 05:55 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Vintage Cymbal Identification

Quote:
Originally Posted by BosLover View Post
By the way, the signature is not engraved, it's signed, presumably by the craftsman who made the cymbal
I've long wondered about this presumption that it is "the craftsman". I thought each cymbal was made by a few people in a factory setting. One does the casting, one the hammering, another the lathing. Then the supervisor comes along at the end of the process and writes the company name (not a signature sensu stricto) underneath. Are you familiar with any specific evidence that there is such a thing as "the craftsman" suggesting that there was one person who was the sole person to hammer and lathe one particular cymbal in the K Zildjian Istanbul factory?
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For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
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  #8  
Old 06-04-2018, 08:41 PM
DH250 DH250 is offline
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Default Re: Vintage Cymbal Identification

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
That matches a Hartrick Old Stamp Type III. Here's a link into my interactive key for identifying these:

http://black.net.nz/old-k/old-k-3.html

I'd say it is a closest match to the Hartrick Type IIIc Old Stamp:



Expected prices for Old Stamps in this diameter are

Old Stamp: Expected median price $1290 with half selling for between $965 and $1600 n=26

Detailed price and weight analysis is here: http://black.net.nz/old-k/old-k-prices.html#20
Yes, definitely a match ("saxophone" design. I did my reading). I came to the right place for information, thank you. I will be posting questions about other vintage instruments as well.
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  #9  
Old 06-20-2018, 01:23 PM
Drumaholic Drumaholic is offline
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Default Re: Vintage Cymbal Identification

Zenstat is right that the inked cursive writing here is not a true signature, but as he said it says "K. Zildjian & Co". The term "signature" is a misnomer that stuck because it actually looks a lot like one. It was only fairly recently that I got the real story about this from Mehmet.
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Old 06-21-2018, 11:25 AM
BosLover BosLover is offline
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Default Re: Vintage Cymbal Identification

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
I've long wondered about this presumption that it is "the craftsman". I thought each cymbal was made by a few people in a factory setting. One does the casting, one the hammering, another the lathing. Then the supervisor comes along at the end of the process and writes the company name (not a signature sensu stricto) underneath. Are you familiar with any specific evidence that there is such a thing as "the craftsman" suggesting that there was one person who was the sole person to hammer and lathe one particular cymbal in the K Zildjian Istanbul factory?
I intended craftsmen as a more generic term, meaning it was hand inscribed by someone on the staff rather than stenciled or stamped. But now I'm wondering how such a fine inscription was placed so clearly on a cymbal years ago. In other words how was it actually written, with no smearing, onto metal? I'm guessing any given cymbal was manufactured by several different people and inscribed by one of them. A production line certainly would be a more efficient process when turning out quantities of cymbals, but I'm also guessing that most of them could, and possibly did, occasionally manufacture a cymbal from ingot to finished product. For some, the term factory setting might conjure up some fairly modern-looking facility with an assembly line. From the photos I have seen, these factories look more like a cottage industry from the Renaissance, a bunch of guys sitting on stools in a minimalist room hand hammering bronze over a form.
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Last edited by BosLover; 06-21-2018 at 11:48 AM.
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