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Old 05-28-2020, 02:42 PM
vyacheslav vyacheslav is offline
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Default Playing (preying) on the nostalgia factor........

Ok, not saying this good or bad or indifferent, just looking for opinions....

The "new" Ludwig Jazz Fest's that came out last year are obviously throwing back to the Jazz fest's of yesteryear. Same ply configuration, same wood, same Resocoat, re-rings etc. However, check out the price of these if you haven't already ($700 +)!

We all know that used Jazz Fests from yesteryear don't go for cheap. But you can certainly find one (depending on the wrap) for less than $700. So here is my question: How much does the "nostalgia factor" play into the pricing/marketing strategy? Here's something to think about:

Anyone can get a Keller shell of the same ply configuration and re-rings, paint the interior white and assemble it yourself with all the Ludwig parts (to the best of my knowledge, Ludwig sells all the parts currently...lugs, baseball bat muffler, strainer and butt plate). We could get the wrap from Precision or Jammin' Sam and find a Keystone badge on ebay (authentic or repro) and we could "build our own" Jazz Fest for about half the price of what Ludwig is charging, and certainly cheaper than used as well.

Would the DIY snare sound any better or any worse? Would anyone be able to tell a difference in sound? Probably not. Would anyone be able to tell any difference, just by looking at it, or even taking it apart and examining it close up? Probably not. So, why do we pay the prices that these command (used or new) when we could have a quality shell, built to the exact specifications and using the same exact hardware for much, much less? Kinda makes you think a little bit, doesn't it?

Now I'm not saying anybody SHOULD be doing this, or if they are, they shouldn't be passing it off as a "real" Jazz Fest, but if you want one to match a kit, or just want one in general, a build your own would certainly be a cheaper option.

So, how do you all feel about this? Would you build your own rather than find a "real one" for cost reasons? Do you think the high prices are part of the nostalgia factor? Not including certain wraps, Jazz Fests in general certainly aren't rare, and the new ones can be easily ordered, so scarcity in the marketplace cannot be used as a viable reason for the high prices (again, with the exception of certain wraps).

I'm just intrigued at the whole concept.

V
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Last edited by vyacheslav; 05-28-2020 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 05-28-2020, 04:42 PM
ATeam ATeam is offline
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Default Re: Playing (preying) on the nostalgia factor........

Many people prefer a brand new reissue over a 50 year old drum or kit because it's still got the vintage vibe but it's brand new, glistens under the lights, and all the parts work correctly. No need to look for water damage, roundness, bearing edges, extra holes, scuffed wrap, pitted chrome, etc. And they're readily available - you don't have to scour Reverb for months/years if you want to add another tom. You just go to Sweetwater and it's at your doorstep in a couple days. Personally, I like the idea of owning equipment that was manufactured and played before I was born. I like to think about who may have played it before me. Was it someone prominent? Were any of my drums used on any prominent records, or was it played at a famous nightclub? Probably not, but the possibility is there. Other people couldn't care less about that. They might be in a heavily working band and they want their drums to be easy to tune, setup quickly and easily, look good under the lights, and be reliable.

Last edited by ATeam; 05-28-2020 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 05-29-2020, 11:23 AM
jbohan6 jbohan6 is offline
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Default Re: Playing (preying) on the nostalgia factor........

I can't see many people purchasing these drums new. The people who are gigging and making money to play these drums aren't going after new iterations. The people buying these are hobbyists and collectors and people who tend to concern themselves with the aesthetic aspect of their instruments. However, I agree with your insight- who the heck would buy a $700+ drum when you could build your own, to your own specs, for less than half? I intend to do the same for a set of slingerlands- I have been amassing radio king parts to install on a 'modern' solid shell- this is significantly cheaper than waiting for an original to come by, and it leaves all the modifications up to me- I can customize the drum in any capacity I want, and will likely be of sturdier make than a genuine radio king. The whole "new vintage" market is a joke in my opinion- company's taking the allure of vintage instruments and placing them at a tall price point, while maintaining few to little of the characteristics that gave said instrument it's reputation in the first place.
Unlike other instruments, drums with wood shells change over time. As that wood dries and loses it's moisture content, the sonic capacities of the drum will change with it. A solid shell made in the 2000's is not the same as a solid shell produced by slingerland back in the 50's and 60's.

just my $.02 = I hold no qualms with musicians who use or purchase these instruments- they are certainly not my interest, though.
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Old 05-29-2020, 02:44 PM
idrum4fun idrum4fun is offline
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Default Re: Playing (preying) on the nostalgia factor........

I do agree with the statements by both ATeam and jbohan6. My personal take is that there are still plenty of drummers out there who do have the money for a new "vintage-style" kit. While I do love my vintage drums, they can be hit and miss with build quality. In that respect, a newer "vintage-style" kit fits the bill. Concerning Ludwig's Jazz Fest snare drum. What hasn't been mentioned is the shell. Ludwig makes them in-house. They are 3-ply mahogany/poplar/mahogany with solid maple re-rings. The mahogany is first quality, not cheaper mahogany. You can't by a shell like this! Yes, you could certainly build a Jazz Fest from a Keller shell, but it won't replicate Ludwig's mahogany shell. Will the Keller-built Jazz Fest sound good? I'm sure it will! But, that's not the point. Personally, I feel that Ludwig's Jazz Fest snare drum captures the essence of a vintage mahogany shell with solid maple re-rings AND the addition of modern hardware, such as the really nice P88 strainer. Just my opinion!

-Mark
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Old 05-29-2020, 04:52 PM
K.O. K.O. is offline
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Default Re: Playing (preying) on the nostalgia factor........

I think what happened in this case was Ludwig saw that Gary Astridge was able to sell his Ringo snare copies for $15,000 apiece. Other than the throw off and not being signed on the interior by Ringo this drum (the Oyster Black version anyway) is basically a "mass produced" version of the same thing (Gary had 15 examples made up).

In fact there was a lot of discussion at the time that if only Ludwig could make a similar drum at a reasonable price point that there would be a ready market. It appears like that is correct, or at least Ludwig was willing to take a gamble on that assumption.

I have several vintage Jazz Festivals (including a 1966 one in oyster Black)and a couple of similar Super Classic snares as well, but yet I'd like to have one of these new drums. I'm somewhat on the fence about what color I want but I do want one. I was hoping to maybe see a deal on one, or maybe even a slightly used example, at this years Chicago show...but that didn't work out.
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Old 05-29-2020, 08:55 PM
Multijd Multijd is offline
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Default Re: Playing (preying) on the nostalgia factor........

You’re assuming somebody has the time, skill and desire to do all of The research, hunting and drum building labor. There is a lot of time and skill there and it is worth something.
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Old 05-30-2020, 10:05 AM
BEC BEC is offline
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Default Re: Playing (preying) on the nostalgia factor........

Yeah, I tried for a couple decades to get that Ringo snare sound like I heard on Help and Rain and other Beatle tracks. My 1960's jazz fest never got too close.
Then I got the new 5.5" jazz festival, threw on a 14mil head to match Ringo's calfskin head and tuned it up.
The drum sounds great, much better than the old ones. The new jazz festivals are built a bit better than the 1960's version imo. Bearing edges function well and the extra .5" adds 10% more resonance to the drum. Well worth 700 bucks I think.
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Old 05-30-2020, 07:02 PM
idrum4fun idrum4fun is offline
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Default Re: Playing (preying) on the nostalgia factor........

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEC View Post
Yeah, I tried for a couple decades to get that Ringo snare sound like I heard on Help and Rain and other Beatle tracks. My 1960's jazz fest never got too close.
Then I got the new 5.5" jazz festival, threw on a 14mil head to match Ringo's calfskin head and tuned it up.
The drum sounds great, much better than the old ones. The new jazz festivals are built a bit better than the 1960's version imo. Bearing edges function well and the extra .5" adds 10% more resonance to the drum. Well worth 700 bucks I think.
And there you have it!

-Mark
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Old 05-30-2020, 08:22 PM
O-Lugs O-Lugs is online now
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Default Re: Playing (preying) on the nostalgia factor........

Meh...Since you asked for opinions...It's all about the real vs. the new and improved. One big difference is that what Ludwig used to do, they don't do the same way anymore. So, no matter what you might think of how things have improved, they still will never be the same, because they came from a time that no longer exists...which can't be recreated or reissued.

There are so many drums now, it doesn't really even matter what's new. It only matters what's old -when it comes to vintage drums.You're buying the old ways..old designs...old manufacturing practices and quality controls. Finding "the" one is often a crapshoot and that's part of it, too.

There was a time when there were four, main drum manufacturers in this country in a friendly competition kind of way. The drums were made in this country during a time when we made our own stuff. And that's never going to be replicated.

That's my opinion.
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