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  #1  
Old 01-30-2020, 02:44 PM
O-Lugs O-Lugs is offline
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Default Why doesn't anyone reverse engineer old K's?

This is probably a naive question...but humor me..

There are enough broken/cracked/unusable old K's around to melt a few down and analyze the molecular elements in the "secret" alloy...right? Then, once that's determined, more fresh alloy can be made and a blank can be cast. After that, bring in a known great example of an old K in and replicate the thickness variances and hammering/lathing patterns using computer-aided/robotic/analytic tools.

Even if there is some kind of priority alloy....I mean...I don't understand how it could ever be policed, so-to-speak. Seems like a hard-to-prove point whether or not a secret alloy is being copied...and even when everything is combined in the proper amounts, there's still going to be variances from batch to batch, anyway...right? How could anyone ever patent an alloy, as such?

I'm sure that, even if this were to happen, there would still be that secret "something" that would differentiate the real ones from the clones.....maybe?

It just doesn't seem like there are any new cymbals that are really like the old K's and a lot of drummers want them...so why isn't manufacturing answering the call?
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Old 01-30-2020, 03:02 PM
jda jda is online now
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Default Re: Why doesn't anyone reverse engineer old K's?

what do you think Istanbul mehmet attempted (with tony williams tribute series recently expanded)
(I've owned gigged recorded and play old Ks for over 15 years) (and other cymbals owned too)
maybe to a lesser extent- what do you think Avedis Keropes ( the ak bounce and maybe some symphonic Aks) are
what more would you like
think mehmet has a 50s series (or the previous 70s) line..
how about the whole entire K series from Avedis since the 70s..some of them sound like old Ks.
The Cindy K Dark Medium 22 for example.

You have to play these (things called) cymbals to hear -once warmed up- how they share similarities.
you got to get them out on the open road and drive them

Last edited by jda; 01-30-2020 at 03:12 PM.
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  #3  
Old 01-30-2020, 06:07 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Why doesn't anyone reverse engineer old K's?

Moot question. It has already been done multiple times by multiple individuals and companies. The alloys are well understood and documented.

http://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/Alloys

Even when the sonic attributes of these overlap with Old Ks (as judged by a group of listeners in a controlled experiment) there exists a group of drummers who say "nothing sounds like an Old K except an Old K". The feeling persists that nothing is an Old K except an Old K. Rather like nothing is a Stradivarius except a Stradivarius. In controlled experiments from 1817 to 2017 it's the same picture as Old Ks: Listeners can't always tell them apart from other quality violins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stradivarius

With the Stradivarius those who wanted to clone them spent great energy studying the wood density, the varnish, the shape, etc. Sound like the detailed study of Old Ks? It seems to be.

Manufacturing is not answering the call because there isn't value in doing so.
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Old 01-30-2020, 06:30 PM
O-Lugs O-Lugs is offline
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Default Re: Why doesn't anyone reverse engineer old K's?

But aren't there other aspects to the old Ks that transcend the sound? They LOOK beautiful, as well...and I don't really SEE any cymbals that look like old K's....wondering about that, as well.

Yes, I realize it all boils down to the cost of doing so....just always figured that regardless of that, someone would try it just...because.
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Old 01-30-2020, 07:03 PM
Drumaholic Drumaholic is offline
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Default Re: Why doesn't anyone reverse engineer old K's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by O-Lugs View Post
This is probably a naive question...but humor me..

There are enough broken/cracked/unusable old K's around to melt a few down and analyze the molecular elements in the "secret" alloy...right? Then, once that's determined, more fresh alloy can be made and a blank can be cast.
You need to read the first article that I just posted. The explanation is in there. In short there is no secret alloy. All these cymbals are simply plain old B-20.

And also if you read that same article you'll find that several attemps have already been made to do just exactly that, and all have failed miserably.
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Old 01-30-2020, 09:33 PM
jda jda is online now
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Default Re: Why doesn't anyone reverse engineer old K's?

"In some ways or another O-lugs they're all old Ks.........."


Get it? ...

(ps. some are more 'old K' than others.. (that is all..
but in some overall reality they're "all" "old K"...(or old Zildjian))

the Turkish "zildjian" were the birth the children that came later remain to this day the children that came later.
and there's no shame in that.

that people can be "fooled' by blindfold is no wonder and only reinforces my point... they're all -in some way-- old turkish Zildjians...

even them stinky B8 and B12 and.. (kidding they're Zildjians too ; ) just 'a variant
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Last edited by jda; 01-30-2020 at 10:01 PM.
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  #7  
Old 01-30-2020, 10:05 PM
jda jda is online now
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Default Re: Why doesn't anyone reverse engineer old K's?

"They reverse-engineer them every day" probably right now; a shift is starting somewhere...in about an hour...
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  #8  
Old 01-31-2020, 12:03 AM
kdg kdg is offline
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Default Re: Why doesn't anyone reverse engineer old K's?

I think the basic issue is that Zildjian today cranks out cymbals at an astonishing rate compared to what the Turkish company was able to do. Mass production and assembly line efficiency compared to every stage being rendered by hand. It simply isn't cost effective to remake the old K's the exact same way.
By comparison, the most desired Orchestra Bells in the world are the Deagan "Round Tops" and "Parsifal bells". The were last made in 1929 using 1095 high carbon spring steel and then drop forged to size while red hot. 25 -30 years ago someone I know thought about reproducing those bells again until they were told that the minimum run would have to be 500 lbs of steel costing about $50,000. And that's before tuning one single bar!
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Old 01-31-2020, 12:29 AM
Drumaholic Drumaholic is offline
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Default Re: Why doesn't anyone reverse engineer old K's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdg View Post
I think the basic issue is that Zildjian today cranks out cymbals at an astonishing rate compared to what the Turkish company was able to do. Mass production and assembly line efficiency compared to every stage being rendered by hand. It simply isn't cost effective to remake the old K's the exact same way.
And just for the record, Avedis Zildjian typically produces 1000 cymbals a day, but the old K. foundry's goal was just a fraction of that at a mere 100 per cymbals day. So your point is well taken.
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  #10  
Old 01-31-2020, 09:21 AM
jda jda is online now
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Default Re: Why doesn't anyone reverse engineer old K's?

And it could be argued that the " cranking out" began (at and "with" Avedis..) long long ago.. from nearly the, inception. Which is "ok". ; ) Progress Just not too much of that 'progress" please lol. Right, Bill?

hell, it's in that 1949 article! Avedis methods sped things up! compared with Turkey, more automation, etc
to today where it's "hey, watch us computer hammer out a K Dark!!"

Last edited by jda; 01-31-2020 at 09:31 AM.
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