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  #21  
Old 12-10-2017, 02:27 PM
Hoppy Hoppy is offline
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Default Re: Is my Supraphonic Alu or Brass?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OddBall View Post
Some Phonic snares are magnetic and some are not, but all are made by the same flat stock Ferromanganese steel supplied by an auto maker.. Because of layer thickness, the magnet may or may not stick to it.
Are you stating that that all Supras (regardless of the originating alloy of either aluminum, brass, bronze, or copper) actually start out as a disc of a steel alloy?
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  #22  
Old 12-10-2017, 02:35 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Is my Supraphonic Alu or Brass?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OddBall View Post
Zenstat`s method of weighing by dimensions and mass relies on knowing the thickness of each layer. Minutes in the bath make the difference in the weights.
The modelling I'm doing doesn't include the mass or thickness of the plating. It's based on just the basic shell material. I'm presuming that the basic shell material is so dominant in the weight of the plated shell that the microns of plating (and specific plating material) don't need to be taken into account. That view could be challenged by somebody else who has data on the weights of plated vs not plated shells, and modelling the plating weight component accordingly.

I note that you and K.O. have given a different order for the plating layers. K.O. has

Copper/nickel/chrome = Triple plated.

and you have

Nickel, then Copper, then the final Chrome

which sends me back to my original comment about generic discussions of plating versus specific Ludwig information. Your info is based on Sonor steel (ferro-manganese), and I can't tell if KO is talking Ludwig specific information or again just generic plating information. I presume your info comes from this video


which gives the order: Copper, Nickel, Chrome.

At one point you seemed to be suggesting a (new to me) theory that Ludwig was only using two layers. Now you seem to be talking three layers. From my point of view this thread is not specifically about the plating, but rather about the probability of a snare made in the early 80s from an Alu shell showing absolutely no sign of pitting. That's a statistical question which requires data on frequency of pitting to answer.
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Last edited by zenstat; 12-10-2017 at 03:56 PM.
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  #23  
Old 12-10-2017, 02:36 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Is my Supraphonic Alu or Brass?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuerst73 View Post
@ zenstat: i could also weigh my acrolite 1976 components, would this be helpful?

Yes please on the acro weights. The more data I've got the more incremental improvements I can make in my modelling.
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Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 12-10-2017 at 03:16 PM.
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  #24  
Old 12-10-2017, 02:47 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Is my Supraphonic Alu or Brass?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoppy View Post
Are you stating that that all Supras (regardless of the originating alloy of either aluminum, brass, bronze, or copper) actually start out as a disc of a steel alloy?
I wouldn't get too worried about talk of steel. OddBall is talking Sonor steel (ferro-manganese) shells, and as far as I can tell has no specific information about the Ludwig materials or processes. He throws out various choices as layers in plating, but those choices keep changing from post to post. So far we have plating layers of Chrome, Nickle, Brass, and Copper mentioned:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OddBall View Post
Ludalloy, Brass, and Chrome would be my guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OddBall
Brass don`t bond well to steel, so Supra`s bubble. Chrome don`t like to stay on steel either. The Nickle or Brass serves as a bonding agent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OddBall
Copper, Nickel, and Chromium are all Elements that wont separate during plating steps.
OddBall if you do have Ludwig specific information I apologize, but you haven't given any explicit statement that you do have Ludwig specific data and where it comes from.
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 12-10-2017 at 03:25 PM.
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  #25  
Old 12-10-2017, 03:16 PM
fuerst73 fuerst73 is offline
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Default Re: Is my Supraphonic Alu or Brass?

Alright so i finally did some (VERY SLIGHT) scratching, you can see the results in the photos attached. i donīt know if this helps.
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  #26  
Old 12-10-2017, 03:28 PM
OddBall OddBall is online now
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Default Re: Is my Supraphonic Alu or Brass?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoppy View Post
Are you stating that that all Supras (regardless of the originating alloy of either aluminum, brass, bronze, or copper) actually start out as a disc of a steel alloy?
No, I`m not.
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  #27  
Old 12-10-2017, 03:45 PM
OddBall OddBall is online now
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Default Re: Is my Supraphonic Alu or Brass?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
I wouldn't get too worried about talk of steel. OddBall is talking Sonor steel (ferro-manganese) shells, and as far as I can tell has no specific information about the Ludwig materials or processes. He throws out various choices as layers in plating, but those choices keep changing from post to post. So far we have plating layers of Chrome, Nickle, Brass, and Copper mentioned:







OddBall if you do have Ludwig specific information I apologize, but you haven't given any explicit statement that you do have Ludwig specific data and where it comes from.

I didn`t know there is a specific order to keep. Nickel, Copper and Chromium are all part of the plating process. (sorry, no given order). Brass can be plated too like the supra he might have.(there will be no Nickel or steel involved.) I haven`t factually proven or tried to prove it not Brass. I think it`s triple plated the correct way because Ludwig put a B on Brass shells and it looks like steel fasteners.

What you need to know about Supra`s is that Ludwig did not put a good finish on many of them that fall into "Vintage" and it literally became a way to determine a vintage from not. For as many Supra`s that were made, there certainly has to be COB out there.

All seamless shells start as a ring. A doughnut if you will. They are drawn over a spinning form cold by a thingamajigy that pushes them over the form.
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  #28  
Old 12-10-2017, 04:00 PM
OddBall OddBall is online now
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Default Re: Is my Supraphonic Alu or Brass?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
The modelling I'm doing doesn't include the mass or thickness of the plating. It's based on just the basic shell material. I'm presuming that the basic shell material is so dominant in the weight of the plated shell that the microns of plating (and specific plating material) don't need to be taken into account. That view could be challenged by somebody else who has data on the weights of plated vs not plated shells, and modelling the plating weight component accordingly.

I note that you and K.O. have given a different order for the plating layers. K.O. has

Copper/nickel/chrome = Triple plated.

and you have



Nickel, then Copper, then the final Chrome

which sends me back to my original comment about generic discussions of plating versus specific Ludwig information. Your info is based on Sonor steel (ferro-manganese), and I can't tell if KO is talking Ludwig specific information or again just generic plating information. I presume your info comes from this video

SONOR Drums - Snare Construction - YouTube

which gives the order: Copper, Nickel, Chrome.

At one point you seemed to be suggesting a (new to me) theory that Ludwig was only using two layers. Now you seem to be talking three layers. From my point of view this thread is not specifically about the plating, but rather about the probability a snare made in the early 80s from an Alu shell showing absolutely no sign of pitting. That's a statistical question which requires data on frequency of pitting to answer.
Ludwig screwed the pooch on the Supra finish, then it fixed it. If I screwed the order of plating, well I don`t do it often, or maybe not at all, but I know the elements involved have not changed.

It does matter if you put a thick as opposed to thin layer of Copper on a shell, same with the Nickel or Chrome.

I have a chip in my tom mount and I went up the street to have it re-chromed, he told me he could fill it with something that resembled bondo and just Chrome over it again, but wanted a fortune to do it. He has to strip it otherwise, they can`t layer up the chip.

My snare has no pitting or rust on the shell, the hoops from tool marks, yes, tiny. If a Supra has no pitting, it is one in a million, or of a later date. Could be brass, if I had this one in my hands I`d know.

But I still think it`s a later model with correct triple plating.
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  #29  
Old 12-10-2017, 06:41 PM
K.O. K.O. is offline
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Default Re: Is my Supraphonic Alu or Brass?

I was speaking of chrome plating in general not a particular method that Ludwig used. ALL decorative chrome plating (the technical name for which is actually "Nickel-Chrome" plating) involves a layer of Nickel under the chrome. As I mentioned the nickel is actually the silvery reflective surface you see. The chrome has no color but protects the nickel so it never tarnishes the way bare nickel plate eventually does. Brand new nickel plate is as shiny as chrome which is why so many drummers opted to save a bit of money by buying drums with nickel plated hardware. In retrospect that seems kind of shortsighted as the price of chrome was just a few dollars more, but when these drummers were looking at these drums new in the store there wasn't that much apparent difference so it may have seemed worthwhile to save a few bucks by buying nickel. A couple decades down the road it was a different story. The outside layer of chrome prevents the tarnishing (and also lends a blueish tint to the overall appearance) so chrome hardware continues to gleam (if cared for properly) long after nickel has lost its luster (unless kept polished).
I was going to post that same Sonor video as it shows essentially the same process as Ludwig's suppliers use to produce the spun shells.

Here's a video that gives a good overview of the chrome plating process. It's both labor intensive and involves very NASTY substances. Notice that when they strip the chrome the item is still shiny silver, until they strip off the nickel.


The main problem with chrome plating aluminum (all aluminum, not just Supra shells) is that when aluminum oxidizes it forms a white powder which literally pushes the plating off the shell. If the seal is good and oxygen can't get to the aluminum this won't happen but if there are microscopic imperfections in the plating, or if the aluminum was contaminated before plating, and oxygen gets to the metal it will begin the process. The aluminum oxide forms under the plating and breaks the bond between the plating and the metal. The answer is to put a layer of zinc on the aluminum before the copper. I assume (but don't know) that this was done to alloy Supra shells with (apparently) varying degrees of success.
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  #30  
Old 12-10-2017, 08:02 PM
OddBall OddBall is online now
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Default Re: Is my Supraphonic Alu or Brass?

This is a chunk of Chromium ore.

Anyhow,..Those scratches in this particular Supra look to be the dipped product and not shiny Brass under it.
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