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  #31  
Old 01-10-2018, 09:23 AM
idrum4fun idrum4fun is offline
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Default Re: Starr Fest

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Originally Posted by DrumBob View Post
I looked at the ticket prices. $70 for one day? Sorry.
What are you referring to?

-Mark
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  #32  
Old 01-10-2018, 10:00 AM
K.O. K.O. is online now
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Default Re: Starr Fest

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Originally Posted by clubdate64 View Post
I was under the impression that the jazz festival was 5" and the Barrett deems was 5 1/2" after a while you'd get a mix of shells and whatever throw offs and butts they had lying around.
I've owned a 1961 5.5" with a classic strainer and standard butt, and a 1967 5" with the same.
Both depths were in the catalog throughout the 60's but the Jazz fest was supposed to be 5" and the 5.5" was used for the "Super Classic" (I think that was the model, I don't have my catalogs handy). But Ludwig made up shells in advance in the more popular wraps (wrap went on as one of the plies before the shell was molded) so there were stacks of ready made shells around the plant. So figure if a guy needs to build a Jazz festival he might easily grab the nearest shell in the appropriate wrap that looks to be the right depth. Or maybe there aren't any 5" shells in the right color but there are some 5.5" or vice-versa. It just appears that they either didn't pay that close of attention to what was being used, or they used what was available to keep production rolling, or maybe they had an excess of 5.5" shells to try to get rid of. I would imagine that there are probably a few 5" deep super classics out there just like there are 5.5" Jazz fests. All part of Ludwig's charm...

The lugs on Ringo's JF are centered indicating that they knew they had a 5.5" shell. Why they used that depth is still a question but apparently they did so on purpose. I have seen at least a couple of 5.5" JF with the lugs off center indicating that whomever drilled it thought they had a 5" shell. I'd guess in those cases someone just grabbed the handiest shell that looked right and didn't double check it.

Last edited by K.O.; 01-10-2018 at 10:04 AM.
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  #33  
Old 01-10-2018, 01:38 PM
BEC BEC is offline
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Default Re: Starr Fest

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Originally Posted by K.O. View Post
Both depths were in the catalog throughout the 60's but the Jazz fest was supposed to be 5" and the 5.5" was used for the "Super Classic" (I think that was the model, I don't have my catalogs handy). But Ludwig made up shells in advance in the more popular wraps (wrap went on as one of the plies before the shell was molded) so there were stacks of ready made shells around the plant. So figure if a guy needs to build a Jazz festival he might easily grab the nearest shell in the appropriate wrap that looks to be the right depth. Or maybe there aren't any 5" shells in the right color but there are some 5.5" or vice-versa. It just appears that they either didn't pay that close of attention to what was being used, or they used what was available to keep production rolling, or maybe they had an excess of 5.5" shells to try to get rid of. I would imagine that there are probably a few 5" deep super classics out there just like there are 5.5" Jazz fests. All part of Ludwig's charm...

The lugs on Ringo's JF are centered indicating that they knew they had a 5.5" shell. Why they used that depth is still a question but apparently they did so on purpose. I have seen at least a couple of 5.5" JF with the lugs off center indicating that whomever drilled it thought they had a 5" shell. I'd guess in those cases someone just grabbed the handiest shell that looked right and didn't double check it.
Couple of comments on this:
There are many shells which measure between 5 and 5.5 inches. What were they made for?
I've never seen or heard of a 5" Super Classic snare drum.
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  #34  
Old 01-10-2018, 05:32 PM
K.O. K.O. is online now
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Default Re: Starr Fest

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Originally Posted by BEC View Post
Couple of comments on this:
There are many shells which measure between 5 and 5.5 inches. What were they made for?
I've never seen or heard of a 5" Super Classic snare drum.
Most of the Jazz festivals I've encountered (not a huge population, but a fair number) measure a bit over 5 inches. It's not a uniform amount though, anywhere from an eighth to 3/8ths inch. So while 5" was the "official" depth for that model it would appear they didn't always (ever?) hit it right on the money. I haven't seen any that were less than 5" in depth but then I haven't seen every one there is.

I haven't had much experience with the "Super Classic" models at all (I only have a couple of them) and never paid much attention to those so I have no idea if any of them might exceed the catalog stated 5.5" depth (or maybe be a bit under). Therefore I also do not know if there are any 5" drums and maybe there aren't. I was just surmising that since 5.5" Jazz Fests exist it would seem possible, even likely, that at some point someone in the factory may have grabbed a 5" shell and made it into a super classic. That would be a bit more noticeable so maybe those didn't make it out of the factory. A too deep snare could be perceived as giving the customer more for their money and okay to ship while a too shallow drum might be perceived in the opposite way and therefore not allowed to leave the factory. Apparently, if it did happen, they are very few and far between.

Certainly you've seen a LOT more drums than I so you are much better informed on this. As usual I'm just thinking out loud based on things I've seen through the years.
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  #35  
Old 01-10-2018, 11:56 PM
idrum4fun idrum4fun is offline
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Default Re: Starr Fest

Here are two Ludwig snare drums in my collection. The Super Classic is dated APR 6 1961 and the Pioneer is dated SEP 16 1966. The Super Classic was advertised with a shell depth of 5.5", with the Pioneer listed as a 5" depth, the same as the Jazz Festival. The actual depth of my Super Classic is 5-5/8", but is 5.5" at the snare beds. In a rare coincidence, the Pioneer, about 5 years newer, has the exact same measurements!

-Mark
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  #36  
Old 01-11-2018, 02:21 AM
Dan Boucher Dan Boucher is offline
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Default Re: Starr Fest

Given the type of snare mechanisms applied to the Super Classic, I would think you'd have to be a bit more careful in your layout when assembling that drum. In that respect, they might have been less likely to use the wrong shell depth to build them. The JF would be more forgiving in that it only changes the length of the snare strings when pinched if you use a different shell depth.

I seem to recall having at least one of the Super Classics along the way and thought the snare arrangement was not a good idea for a drum that was going to be transported a lot. I can see it as an orchestral instrument where a greater deal of care might be applied, but otherwise left a lot of room for damage and the resulting issues of snare buzz or choking the resonant head.

What have you regular users found in that regard?
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  #37  
Old 01-11-2018, 02:17 PM
BEC BEC is offline
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Default Re: Starr Fest

Quote:
Originally Posted by K.O. View Post
Most of the Jazz festivals I've encountered (not a huge population, but a fair number) measure a bit over 5 inches. It's not a uniform amount though, anywhere from an eighth to 3/8ths inch. So while 5" was the "official" depth for that model it would appear they didn't always (ever?) hit it right on the money. I haven't seen any that were less than 5" in depth but then I haven't seen every one there is.

I haven't had much experience with the "Super Classic" models at all (I only have a couple of them) and never paid much attention to those so I have no idea if any of them might exceed the catalog stated 5.5" depth (or maybe be a bit under). Therefore I also do not know if there are any 5" drums and maybe there aren't. I was just surmising that since 5.5" Jazz Fests exist it would seem possible, even likely, that at some point someone in the factory may have grabbed a 5" shell and made it into a super classic. That would be a bit more noticeable so maybe those didn't make it out of the factory. A too deep snare could be perceived as giving the customer more for their money and okay to ship while a too shallow drum might be perceived in the opposite way and therefore not allowed to leave the factory. Apparently, if it did happen, they are very few and far between.

Certainly you've seen a LOT more drums than I so you are much better informed on this. As usual I'm just thinking out loud based on things I've seen through the years.
I'd opine Ludwig never scrapped a drum after it was finished. Never heard of that, or seen one that would have been rejected (The Chief would have sold/wholesaled/traded them before just throwing them away and we would have heard about them by now?).
And, I don't know if there's any rhyme or reason or protocol for employees grabbing a slab of three ply wood to wrap, turn into a shell, and throw a strainer on.....and that's my point kinda!
And, I have super classic snare drums that are 5 and 7/8 inches but I don't find jazz fest that are more than 5.5" deep so what's it all mean?
Well, I have no theories on any of it, because maybe it's all just as random as things were back then?
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  #38  
Old 01-11-2018, 03:32 PM
salty 1322 salty 1322 is offline
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Default Re: Starr Fest

This is an amazing thread! Thanks for posting, Ludzil! I've been trying to learn about Ludwigs for the last couple of years, ever since I was bequeathed a beautiful late seventies Supra! This thread is most informative, especially to a novice like me. You guys are a fantastic wealth of knowledge! Thank you!
Brian
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  #39  
Old 01-11-2018, 10:55 PM
K.O. K.O. is online now
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Default Re: Starr Fest

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Originally Posted by BEC View Post
I'd opine Ludwig never scrapped a drum after it was finished. Never heard of that, or seen one that would have been rejected (The Chief would have sold/wholesaled/traded them before just throwing them away and we would have heard about them by now?).
And, I don't know if there's any rhyme or reason or protocol for employees grabbing a slab of three ply wood to wrap, turn into a shell, and throw a strainer on.....and that's my point kinda!
And, I have super classic snare drums that are 5 and 7/8 inches but I don't find jazz fest that are more than 5.5" deep so what's it all mean?
Well, I have no theories on any of it, because maybe it's all just as random as things were back then?
I'd agree that it's unlikely they threw anything out that they could sell.

As far as the varying depths, a couple of theories. 1. they made a plywood board complete with wrap and then cut it to size before bending it into a shell and the guys doing the cutting weren't particularly careful to get the exact measurement. 2. perhaps the boards were cut slightly oversized to compensate for cutting the edges later on and either the amount added on or the amount removed when the edges were cut varied resulting in different overall depths. I doubt we'll ever know. I've never paid much attention to other drums like bass drums and toms to see how exact they are on depths. It might be that snare drums were different from those drums too since they also require the cutting of snare beds.

One thing is for certain, they didn't have nearly as tight production tolerance requirements as what we see today. They didn't really need to since no customers were likely measuring shell depths back then to insure the drums were exactly in spec. As long as the drums looked nice, tuned up, and were reasonably close to spec. they'd pass muster with most of the people buying them at the time.

As far as the Super Classics I think Dan may be on to something. The P-83 will work on any shell over a certain depth so if the worker noticed he had a shell that was deeper than necessary for the jazz fest or Pioneer he was supposed to be making he might just shrug his shoulders and continue, knowing it will work fine regardless. That same worker noticing that he has a shell that was a bit undersized may have had to alter what he was doing if he was building a super classic, knowing that that throw would have problems if the shell wasn't deep enough...just another theory of course.

we've definitely drifted a long way off from Gary's Ringo snares here but it is an interesting discussion.
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