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  #111  
Old 01-15-2020, 08:04 AM
jmoll jmoll is offline
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Default Re: Type I,II,III old K s

Thank you Joe.
Yes, those are mine and is super rare to find them here in Spain..I was really lucky. Most of my old K's I had to bought them from your side of the ocean, but this time I found them very close, only 10 min. walking from my house!!
I think they sound lovely and work really great as a pair
Bill, the bell shape (mostly on the 18") reminds me to some Matthias IIIa's, but he never post the stamps, so is difficult to know for sure. Also, I don't know if the bell shape is a real indicator of the production era. Which attributes make you think they are IIIa?
And only for curiosity, the 20" is the lightest I have seen, maybe you know of a lighter 20" around?
I would liked to post them here, but I'm having trouble uploading pictures in this site lately..
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Old Zildjian K's

Last edited by jmoll; 01-15-2020 at 08:12 AM.
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  #112  
Old 01-15-2020, 08:55 AM
jda jda is online now
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Default Re: Type I,II,III old K s

I'll help w/pictures anytime J.
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  #113  
Old 01-15-2020, 09:33 AM
BosLover BosLover is offline
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Default Re: Type I,II,III old K s

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoll View Post
Thank you Joe.
Yes, those are mine and is super rare to find them here in Spain..I was really lucky. Most of my old K's I had to bought them from your side of the ocean, but this time I found them very close, only 10 min. walking from my house!!
I think they sound lovely and work really great as a pair
Bill, the bell shape (mostly on the 18") reminds me to some Matthias IIIa's, but he never post the stamps, so is difficult to know for sure. Also, I don't know if the bell shape is a real indicator of the production era. Which attributes make you think they are IIIa?
And only for curiosity, the 20" is the lightest I have seen, maybe you know of a lighter 20" around?
I would liked to post them here, but I'm having trouble uploading pictures in this site lately..
Really nice cymbals. In your video the 20 inch sounds very big and very dark and reminds me a bit of what I would expect from a 22 inch cymbal. I'm guessing that is a result of it's very light weight.
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Last edited by BosLover; 01-15-2020 at 09:37 AM.
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  #114  
Old 01-15-2020, 10:19 AM
jda jda is online now
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Default Re: Type I,II,III old K s

"they can't, won't don't. know how to make cymbals like that today; none of the bosphorusistanbulmeinldirilamediasoultonetrx and the 90 other cymbal companies. They're only handmade once but that particular group of fellas on that particular day at that particular time. Just Unrepeatable.
Old Ks are an unrepeartable event. ha. Unrepeatable.

All Paul Francis knows (seems to..) ( sorry Paul!) are New Stamps (Bounce Kenny New Stamp ride anyone?) (I know. I know, he did work, was involved with symphonic old K Constantinoples..but beyond that..) ; he doesn't "see" there were eras. Of manufacturer. So that he maybe could "zero in" on an era (type III or Intermediate for example) . No He "see's " old K as one flow ( which is ok) but he ends up then, with an "amalgam of old K" whereas Old Ks were " Specific". Repeatable.
(Find an Intermediate from anywhere on the planet- and see (that) within an era "they were all consistent -the same" but when an "era" changed "so did" the build of the cymbal.

Francis and Istanbul and Bosphorus/ don't/ won't get that....

they "think" it's one cymbal. Maybe a gradual evolve.
But Insignia Change signaled Dramatic change. (pretty easy to understand..)

They need me and Bill to get there and explain it to them. Until then.
Old Ks are/were/ an Unrepeatable event. Unrepeatable event

amen.

there's around 6 style of Old Ks. Or 3 if you cut it another way) No wonder they "can't make".. a "One"..

Old Stamps (4)
Intermediate Stamps (1)
New Stamps. (1)
equals 6 (or 3..builds. Build eras.

In retrospec , repeatable (at the time, for old K, within, and thru out the respective era ) as the nose on one's face.

But since then, it's been over. Is over. Unrepeatable.
Unless concentration on one specific era. You can't ( well Avedis Kerope can) amalgamate ; but that's what "they" (today) (see Avedis Kerope) do..they blend it into a half-assed replicate. The small Turkish makers say " we make the same" but don't understand nor see (the huge) details.

That's why Bill's work was important. He uncovered ---what was in plain view. For everyone to see. For those that chose "to see"..
The cymbal companies so far refuse to see - or give weight to - what's obvious. And just dance along their merry way..
So old Ks- all of them- all era- basically remain: Unrepeatable.

The true Closet; tucked away, hidden, (story) of Zildjian.

Last edited by jda; 01-15-2020 at 11:01 AM.
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  #115  
Old 01-15-2020, 11:10 AM
hardbat hardbat is offline
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Default Re: Type I,II,III old K s

That 20 is fabulous.
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  #116  
Old 01-15-2020, 11:12 AM
jda jda is online now
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Default Re: Type I,II,III old K s

Paul repeats how old K cup were formed and uses that to explain high and low and wide and flat cups.
There's more to it than that.

Each of the six (3) era had a cup similarity- which did not- did not- cross into another era.

So there's more to it- than Paul's simple explanation.

The cupping dye was different. So each era had it's own dye. (tool shape)

You don't find Typee III cups in New Stamps. Not even if you have a wide and wild "imagination".

Explain Intermediate cups. (they are) Neither type III nor New Stamp shape.

It cannot be "one tool" those on the top were deeper than those on the bottom.

Within an era (when the cups were made that way btw..) Yet still the Tool was a different shape as the Insignia changed.

Is clear as the hands of a clock. They were different. They (old K) went thru different periods. And the seemingly Fact the Insignia changed with the build change; then (the cymbal) remained the same; until the next insignia change.

Last edited by jda; 01-15-2020 at 11:17 AM.
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  #117  
Old 01-15-2020, 11:26 AM
jda jda is online now
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Default Re: Type I,II,III old K s

What I'm saying is, for example " How can everyone's Type IV (a or b) 18" (+/-) LOOK the same...whether it's Blue's up in Vermont, mine down in Pa,, another's on ebay..."

or " How why can? Everyone's 20 " New Stamp look the same - Carbon Copy- whether in LA, Australia, England, or South Carolina?"

and even " Gather a roomful of Type III's (all diameters) and it will look like a Cymbal Clone Build gathering"

My only guess estimation is was.... a Team- the same guys, the same foreman----worked a period. (the length of an Insignia) that number of years.

Then, Were Fired or thrown out or quit (due to lack of work?) and another batch of fellas were organized/ came in.

AND each time (6_(or 3) this happened; the 'boss' or Insignia maker said " New Insignia".

And that group of fellas- made a certain style- for as long as- they lasted...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

Which may lead to (if you're the investigative type) to Ownership of the company. Mention has been made that the ownership changed hands. Possibly often ( Maybe 6 times? from 40 to 1978?) Did the ownership changing hands lead to an Insignia and 'team' of workers change also.

That could explain the different eras. And the Insignia changed corresponded to a different team of grunts (workers) and manager (and different style of product) .
How many changes - from 1940 to 1978- to the letterhead?..(6?)..on the Order sheets..
Now were'getting somewhere.
Wasn't there a woman involved. Didn't a woman have the reins of the company for awhile. And wasn't there an Ohioan Toledo or something at another time the chief operating officer ?. The Cymbal shop ownership was Fluid....

It may have also had pauses. When either material or Sales didn't materialize and everyone was dis banded. Sent home. On a restart did the thought of Insignia change accompany? the place may have Closed and Opened (for all we know) 6 or 7 times , with different workers and 'craftsman) Even if just a few weeks. Then reassembled.

Last edited by jda; 01-15-2020 at 11:51 AM.
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  #118  
Old 01-15-2020, 06:27 PM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: Type I,II,III old K s

Quote:
Originally Posted by jda View Post
"they can't, won't don't. know how to make cymbals like that today; none of the bosphorusistanbulmeinldirilamediasoultonetrx and the 90 other cymbal companies. They're only handmade once but that particular group of fellas on that particular day at that particular time. Just Unrepeatable.
Old Ks are an unrepeartable event. ha. Unrepeatable.

All Paul Francis knows (seems to..) ( sorry Paul!) are New Stamps (Bounce Kenny New Stamp ride anyone?) (I know. I know, he did work, was involved with symphonic old K Constantinoples..but beyond that..) ; he doesn't "see" there were eras. Of manufacturer. So that he maybe could "zero in" on an era (type III or Intermediate for example) . No He "see's " old K as one flow ( which is ok) but he ends up then, with an "amalgam of old K" whereas Old Ks were " Specific". Repeatable.
(Find an Intermediate from anywhere on the planet- and see (that) within an era "they were all consistent -the same" but when an "era" changed "so did" the build of the cymbal.

Francis and Istanbul and Bosphorus/ don't/ won't get that....

they "think" it's one cymbal. Maybe a gradual evolve.
But Insignia Change signaled Dramatic change. (pretty easy to understand..)

They need me and Bill to get there and explain it to them. Until then.
Old Ks are/were/ an Unrepeatable event. Unrepeatable event

amen.

there's around 6 style of Old Ks. Or 3 if you cut it another way) No wonder they "can't make".. a "One"..

Old Stamps (4)
Intermediate Stamps (1)
New Stamps. (1)
equals 6 (or 3..builds. Build eras.

In retrospec , repeatable (at the time, for old K, within, and thru out the respective era ) as the nose on one's face.

But since then, it's been over. Is over. Unrepeatable.
Unless concentration on one specific era. You can't ( well Avedis Kerope can) amalgamate ; but that's what "they" (today) (see Avedis Kerope) do..they blend it into a half-assed replicate. The small Turkish makers say " we make the same" but don't understand nor see (the huge) details.

That's why Bill's work was important. He uncovered ---what was in plain view. For everyone to see. For those that chose "to see"..
The cymbal companies so far refuse to see - or give weight to - what's obvious. And just dance along their merry way..
So old Ks- all of them- all era- basically remain: Unrepeatable.

The true Closet; tucked away, hidden, (story) of Zildjian.

Could you repeat that, I didn't finish reading it and can't find where I left off ?
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  #119  
Old 01-15-2020, 06:31 PM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Boston MA.
Posts: 6,276
Default Re: Type I,II,III old K s

Quote:
Originally Posted by jda View Post
Paul repeats how old K cup were formed and uses that to explain high and low and wide and flat cups.
There's more to it than that.

Each of the six (3) era had a cup similarity- which did not- did not- cross into another era.

So there's more to it- than Paul's simple explanation.

The cupping dye was different. So each era had it's own dye. (tool shape)

You don't find Typee III cups in New Stamps. Not even if you have a wide and wild "imagination".

Explain Intermediate cups. (they are) Neither type III nor New Stamp shape.

It cannot be "one tool" those on the top were deeper than those on the bottom.

Within an era (when the cups were made that way btw..) Yet still the Tool was a different shape as the Insignia changed.

Is clear as the hands of a clock. They were different. They (old K) went thru different periods. And the seemingly Fact the Insignia changed with the build change; then (the cymbal) remained the same; until the next insignia change.

So did they hammer the cup over the die or flip it upside down and hammer it into the die ?

I'm dying to know !!
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It`s a drum,.....Hit It !!

.....76/#XK9207 Phonic Sound Machine D454/D-505 snares !i
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  #120  
Old 01-15-2020, 06:40 PM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Boston MA.
Posts: 6,276
Default Re: Type I,II,III old K s

Quote:
Originally Posted by jda View Post
What I'm saying is, for example " How can everyone's Type IV (a or b) 18" (+/-) LOOK the same...whether it's Blue's up in Vermont, mine down in Pa,, another's on ebay..."

or " How why can? Everyone's 20 " New Stamp look the same - Carbon Copy- whether in LA, Australia, England, or South Carolina?"

and even " Gather a roomful of Type III's (all diameters) and it will look like a Cymbal Clone Build gathering"

My only guess estimation is was.... a Team- the same guys, the same foreman----worked a period. (the length of an Insignia) that number of years.

Then, Were Fired or thrown out or quit (due to lack of work?) and another batch of fellas were organized/ came in.

AND each time (6_(or 3) this happened; the 'boss' or Insignia maker said " New Insignia".

And that group of fellas- made a certain style- for as long as- they lasted...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

Which may lead to (if you're the investigative type) to Ownership of the company. Mention has been made that the ownership changed hands. Possibly often ( Maybe 6 times? from 40 to 1978?) Did the ownership changing hands lead to an Insignia and 'team' of workers change also.

That could explain the different eras. And the Insignia changed corresponded to a different team of grunts (workers) and manager (and different style of product) .
How many changes - from 1940 to 1978- to the letterhead?..(6?)..on the Order sheets..
Now were'getting somewhere.
Wasn't there a woman involved. Didn't a woman have the reins of the company for awhile. And wasn't there an Ohioan Toledo or something at another time the chief operating officer ?. The Cymbal shop ownership was Fluid....

It may have also had pauses. When either material or Sales didn't materialize and everyone was dis banded. Sent home. On a restart did the thought of Insignia change accompany? the place may have Closed and Opened (for all we know) 6 or 7 times , with different workers and 'craftsman) Even if just a few weeks. Then reassembled.
Nope, They put them under a three ton die and exploded dynamite on top and mass produced blanks.

Actually, they all can't be exact because they are not even in round. Real hard to find a round K. So How can they make them all the same out of round ?
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.....76/#XK9207 Phonic Sound Machine D454/D-505 snares !i
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