They stole the idea from Paiste!.....Paiste had a hollow logo/Zildjian came out with a hollow logo...Paiste came out with solid logo/Zildjian came out with a solid logo!

Hello,

Actually, the hollow logo dates back to 1976. Zildjian had a series of "Rock" cymbals with a special font to celebrate the bicentennial of 1976. They had a special, "one time" font on the top of the cymbal. To my knowledge, that is the first appearance of the hollow logo on the underside of the cymbal. It lasted until 1983. I know that Louie Bellson made his excellent instructional video "The Musical Drummer" in 1984, and the new Zildjian's he's playing on the video have the logos filled in on the top and bottom of the cymbals.

In what year did P start with the hollow logo underneath?..I am not sure..but..1970s..for sure...

Hi,

Do you mean Paiste? It was 1971. Phil Cormier

Hi,

Who designed the Zildjian Hollow logo? Does anyone know? What is his name? Phil Cormier Leominster, Ma 01453

Yes,Paiste....

So..they started 7 years before Zildjian with the hollow logo...

OK..Paiste started with solid logo in what..1980?..

If so..in what year did Zildjian start?.....Copy Cats!

I've been off on sick leave but I can't let all the outdated info which has been posted in this thread go without some comment.

The Zildjian hollow ink is 1978 to late 1982 according to Paul Francis and Leon Chiappini. Yes there is the occasional report of something earlier. No well documented example has been found earlier than 1978. So far it is all recall of a purchase from more than 5 decades ago. If we are going to move the first factory use of the hollow Zildjian ink back to 1976 we need better evidence. I'll come back to this after we get the up to date years for Paiste.

Paiste serial numbers started in mid 1972. They put the hollow font ink underneath in 1972, based on the association of serial numbers and hollow font ink on the same cymbal. The third change at this time was use of the outline form of the embossed (pressed into the metal) Formula 602 stamp versus the solid version. It looks like the solid form continued in use and was joined by the outline form. There are other ink changes as well. This is based on a large study of thousands of cymbals. The Paiste ink on the underside went solid some time in 1981 (based on serial number analysis). I haven't yet looked at a summary across all Paiste series, but first year of 1981 just needs to be established in one series. We may learn more detail as research continues. You can look up all these details in the Paiste portal of Cymbal.Wiki although we have a lot more to add.

Now back to the 1976 year for the groovy font Rock 21...

That Rock21 1976 groovy font "special year" story is now known to be inaccurate. That flyer dates from October 1974 if you have the full size image and examine the lower left corner for publication date. This ad campaign and flyer were not specific to 1976 at all. I presume the info comes from this thread from 2017

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=59137

I reported an unverified internet rumor as fact regarding the specific 1976 bicentennial ink style as seen in flyers. The Rock models came out in 1973 and are one of the first cymbal models to come out of the Norwell factory (opened Dec 1972). It now looks like the early Rock Hats, Crashes, and Rides all had the groovy font from the release date, and I've got examples of all of them in flyers and on cymbals (some were shown in that 2017 thread). It is not yet established how long the groovy font lasted although 1982 would fit with other ink changes. I need more info on that. I apologize for reporting the whole bicentennial 1976 claim without proper caution.

There is still some uncertainty about the two different models called Rock 21 and 21" Rock Ride.

[img]https://black.net.nz/avedis/images/Rock21-vs-Rock.png[/img]

We have quality measurements for the large cup (and the rest) so I can verify that the Rock 21 cup is larger diameter and deeper than the next smaller cup (called the special cup). The special cup was used on the 21" and 20" Rock Rides (hence the description of deeper but not extra deep).

It also seems to be the case that the "special weight" described for the Rock 21 is actually a bit lighter than the 21" Rock Rides were later on. Under 3000g for the early ones, versus over 3200g for the later 21" cymbals. I was skeptical at first because I expected "special weight" to mean heavier for rock...but the data so far suggests the opposite. It also isn't clear when the Rock 21 as a specific model was dropped, or if the 21" Rock Ride was dropped and the name of the Rock 21 just changed to Rock Ride in some sort of simplification of the product lines. This is on my task list but I'm not there yet.

I'm always trying to add data points where I've got ink on top and bottom plus the specific trademark stamp used, plus a weight. I'm up to over 35 21" Rock examples and 13 20" Rock examples, but many are missing ink and/or details on the trademark used or the weight. So accumulation of data has been a slow process.

Note that part of the uncertainty about how early the hollow ink Zildjian was used is also because there are early Rock cymbals which have a 1960s short stamp on them. That is another case where now that thousands of cymbals have been examined we know that the 60s stamp was still in use into the 1970s. The nicknames "60s stamp" and "70s stamp" aren't an accurate statement of first year of use in factory and last year of use in factory. This same issue of decade boundaries comes up with Paiste serial numbers where there is still lots of misinformation on the interwebs suggesting that serial numbers started in "1970" (wrong) versus "the 1970s" (true, but we have narrowed it down to 1972).

So if your 1971 comes from some notion that serial numbers started in 1971, they didn't. If on the other hand you have some very specific information about a 1971 produced cymbal with the hollow ink Paiste on the underside I'm all ears and would be happy to update the wiki accordingly.