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Old 02-12-2020, 05:23 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Cymbal Ink and the Evolving Understanding of Weight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peedy View Post
And then there's my 16 inch MEDIUM crash (1050g) from about 1958. Same hammering as my favorite 14 inch crash (660g) of the same time period. Rides well too.

Pete
That one will have the Small Cup because that's what Zildjian used on cymbals up to 17" at that time. The MEDIUM ink is the sloping out M version which was in use for some time. Again I haven't pinned down the changeover to the thicker ink font without the sloping out M. You can see where that weight fits in the bigger picture. These are separated by production era and sorted by increasing weight within each production era:

Era Ink Weight

T3: Medium Thin 909g
T3: sizzle but no ink 979g
Trans: no ink 1400g (presume Marching Band? Or just a Heavy?)

Large Stamp: no ink but medium cup 921g (an example of a larger than usual cup size on a 16")

Small Stamp: no ink 825g
Small Stamp: Medium 1050g <<< yours -- also see below for comments
Small Stamp: Medium Bounce 1124g (weight class ink plus model ink, Small cup)
Small Stamp: no ink sizzle 1601g (presume Marching Band? Or just a Heavy?)

60s Medium 928g
60s Thin 1009g
60s Fast 1035g
60s Medium Thin 1044g
60s reputed RIDE ink 1260g
60s reputed RIDE ink 1275g

78-82 Thin Crash 795g (weight possibly misreported or it was a Paper Thin or Extra Thin?)
70s: Paper Thin Crash 868g (my cymbal and you can trust the weight)
78-82 Thin Crash 1020g
78-82 Thin Crash 1044g
78-82 Thin Crash 1061g
78-82 Thin Crash 1085g
78-82 Medium Thin Crash 1134g
82-91 Medium Thin Crash 1144g
78-82 Medium Crash 1197g
78-82 Rock Crash 1330g

These aren't all 100% double checked data yet, but you should get the idea that the picture is complex. I'm slowly working through more data checking and recoding and hopefully will make progress on a bespoke statistical method which lets us use all the data (cymbals with ink and without ink) from all the diameters and production eras to produce a model which is anchored in places where we have the data, and imputes the general pattern of Weight Classes across the whole of the range. The range being 8" to 26" diameter, by 90 years of production, by the 6 (or 8) weight classes. The weight classes are "6 or 8" because of the little wrinkles with the Ex. Thin vs Paper Thin classes and whether or not to include Ex. Heavy as a separate from just Heavy. I suspect lack of cymbals with ink will mean using just the 6 basic weight classes. There are cymbals smaller than 8" and larger than 26" but probably not enough with ink to do much. We'll see what we can manage. We're already looking at a 3 way classification with 19 diameters by 6 weight classes by 12 production eras so there are 1,368 cells we need estimates for. We have a very sparse data matrix, so a lot of clever use of statistics is called for. But then I would say that wouldn't I?

In the late 50s some cymbals were called Bounce and there is a theory that these were a bit heavier. There wasn't ink saying Ride as such, and in general there were just different weight classes. The Ride vs Crash terminology did not take off until a bit later. I'd say your cymbal with MEDIUM ink is best referred to as a MEDIUM and not a "MEDIUM crash". Yours is a little lighter than the BOUNCE model in the same diameter, but there is so little data on BOUNCE models across all diameters that it is too soon to interpret that as confirmation of the theory that the BOUNCE model is heavier in the general case. The history of cymbal study is littered with people jumping to conclusions using inadequate data. And on that note I haven't yet tackled the question of whether the MEDIUM weight class became the MEDIUM RIDE later on, and the THIN became the THIN CRASH later on... We need to check out how the weight classes pre and post differentiation into RIDE and CRASH (and CRASH RIDE which sits in between) actually line up rather than just assume we know what's what.
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Last edited by zenstat; 02-13-2020 at 01:13 PM.
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