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-   -   Vintage Drums Comparison (http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=65620)

johnnyringo 01-12-2020 03:32 AM

Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Interesting video....

jda 01-12-2020 10:44 AM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Gretsch, Ludwig, Slingerland, Rogers, Premier, Sonor.

vintagemore2000 01-12-2020 11:50 AM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Good video. But not using the same heads on all drums really is moot !!

DrumBob 01-12-2020 12:38 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
There really wasn't much difference in the tone of all those drums.

johnnyringo 01-12-2020 05:42 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DrumBob (Post 456537)
There really wasn't much difference in the tone of all those drums.

Exactly! Bowing

JimmySticks 01-12-2020 08:07 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
In a live gig situation, I doubt anybody in the audience would have heard a difference in any of these kits.

And not for anything, but that MIJ sounded as good as any of those other kits and it looked a lot cooler in that wrap than the others. So much for MIJs being firewood...

johnnyringo 01-12-2020 08:15 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmySticks (Post 456545)
In a live gig situation, I doubt anybody in the audience would have heard a difference in any of these kits.

And not for anything, but that MIJ sounded as good as any of those other kits and it looked a lot cooler in that wrap than the others. So much for MIJs being firewood...

Ha! Most numb brained, tone deaf audiences wouldn't notice a difference if the drummer was using pots and pans.Eye Ball

jda 01-12-2020 09:30 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Well these guys have cracked the secret to making all drums sound the same congratulations..
with the added bonus of playing the same.
well done.

jda 01-12-2020 09:39 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyringo (Post 456550)
to get a good drum sound..

that's where individuality comes in.
These drums are all tuned to that "one sound". That One sound" is flat. Make em flat. If you flatten 18 brands of tire; take the air all out; you have 18 flat tires.

Pump em full of Air (TENSION the Drums) THEN you'd get the differences.

The above is in, the Wayne and Garth style , (way? no way) school of drumming.
There's so much commonality among you tube in nearly every video demo.

Like stuck in Rock 1972.

jda 01-12-2020 09:45 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
wait. is the same snare being used for every one of those? double triple insanity

Gretsch, Ludwig, Slingerland, Rogers, Premier, Sonor.
are the six brands of vintage should have been used. A set each from 1967-1972 time Frame.
Tension the Heads. Play better. Make the toms ring. And you'd hear differences.

The whole Internet youtube Drum world is 80% Waynes World; Spinal Tap.
That hasn't moved past 1971 Atomic Rooster..and is determined to stay stuck in one spot.
Total disservice. Afraid to Tension drums. believe there's but one sound. Sad.

Then they'll cut a hole in the front head and muffle it on top of that. Sad.
I think it's a fear of jazz that holds them from ever getting better.

And I don't mean Joe Morello. I mean Ornette Coleman. A deep dive into jazz. These drum demos (80% on youtube) (mycymbal, dcnh and the like) are all the the 2ft.- 4ft. wading pool of drumming.

johnnyringo 01-12-2020 09:52 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jda (Post 456551)
that's where individuality comes in.
These drums are all tuned to that "one sound". That One sound" is flat. Make em flat. If you flatten 18 brands of tire; take the air all out; you have 18 flat tires.

Pump em full of Air (TENSION the Drums) THEN you'd get the differences.

The above is in, the Wayne and Garth style , (way? no way) school of drumming.
There's so much commonality among you tube in nearly every video demo.

Like stuck in Rock 1972.

From my experience, there ain't a whole lot of difference between Ludwig, Slingerland, Rogers or Gretsch. You may think there is because of your biased for a certain company. I've played cheapo drums that sounded every bit as good as their expensive counterparts. Everyone has their favorites, mine happens to be Ludwig, mainly because of their history and who played them.

jda 01-12-2020 10:14 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyringo (Post 456555)
From my experience, there ain't a whole lot of difference between Ludwig, Slingerland, Rogers or Gretsch. You may think there is because of your biased for a certain company. I've played cheapo drums that sounded every bit as good as their expensive counterparts. Everyone has their favorites, mine happens to be Ludwig, mainly because of their history and who played them.

Well, I'm not biased. I've played them all And I love all the main brands. And they all have their own character. Sometimes deep character...differences...
But if you're going to flatten down all the toms, throw a pillow and a hole in the bass drum, and put the same 400 metal snare to each one..what do you expect..
Neutered would be the word.

"Lookie ther, we got 15 cats all different colors, but each one's been neutered real good. Can't tell a one from the other"..
Then we're going to run the same mics on them, on the same day, played by the same guy pick the difference!
Should have been titled how to 'the best of our ability' make 7 drum sets sound the same We can do it!
Add our special brew free open stage blues night jam hive 4th grade mentality slugger drumming on top of it. Um um good.
That's some good eating right there.

no. It's 2020 and it's pathetic. :) And (worst of all) "they're dumbing down" an ancient-ancient serious-serious art.
The only name stamped on their bus card is "rock". That's what their heads are full..
Take another path please, another journey and arrive at a better destination..

johnnyringo 01-12-2020 10:32 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jda (Post 456556)
Well, I'm not biased. I've played them all And I love all the main brands. And they all have their own character. Sometimes deep character...
But if you're going to flatten down all the toms, throw a pillow and a hole in the bass drum, and put the same 400 metal snare to each one..what do you expect..
Neutered would be the word.

"Lookie ther, we got 15 cats all different colors, but each one's been neutered real good. Can't tell a one from the other"..
Then we're going to run the same mics on them, on the same day, played by the same guy pick the difference!
Should have been titled how to make 7 drumsets sound the same We can do it!

The snare was not the focus of this comparison, that's why he used the same one on each kit. What ever difference you may hear on the kits you've had is subtle at best. I've tuned the same configuration of different kits high, low and in between with little to no muffling, using coated Ambassadors on all of them, not much difference. And why would there be? They're just drums made with wood and metal. The edges and heads make most of the difference in the sound which like I said is subtle.

jda 01-12-2020 10:45 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Yes but the snare was part of the sound. Not it's not subtle. You take 3 ply 5x14 wood 60s snare from Ludwig. And take a 60s wood snare same number of lug from Gretrsch (two that I have (among others) and they are a World apart.
This getting silly now.
Are all cars the same? they each got you down to the Stop and Go. doesn't make them the same. There isn't a nut similar to either. Maybe a washer.
Why would they be? Because they're different.

Well the heads are all the same that's true. So that'd be the tires. Everything else is different. Any way who cares? I'm done. For now ;)

johnnyringo 01-12-2020 10:58 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jda (Post 456559)
Yes but the snare was part of the sound. Not it's not subtle. You take 3 ply 5x14 wood 60s snare from Ludwig. And take a 60s wood snare same number of lug from Gretrsch (two that I have (among others) and they are a World apart.
This getting silly now.
Are all cars the same? they each got you down to the Stop and Go. doesn't make them the same. There isn't a nut similar to either. Maybe a washer.
Why would they be? Because they're different.

Well the heads are all the same that's true. So that'd be the tires. Everything else is different. Any way who cares? I'm done. For now ;)

Again, the snare was not the focus! He was comparing toms and kick drums. Of course different snares would sound different, on the snare, it wouldn't change the sound of the toms or kick. What the heck?
That's like saying different cymbals will make the drums sound different, you're right about one thing though, this is getting silly.
And ya, cars are pretty much the same too. You may get more gadgets and excelleration in more expensive cars, but when it comes down to it, a Toyota will probably last longer than that Mercedes you may dream about.Excited

jda 01-12-2020 11:09 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
ps. The snare (along with the bass drum and then the floor tom and the small tom) sets the tone of the entire set.

'He' would have been better off ....not using a snare at all. (if he didn't have the matching wood snare that went with each set) And just played toms and bass. (but that wouldn't be 70s rock now would it (unless you're ginger baker..)

Snare's your first Voice (next to bass) on a set. ( and he uses the same one thru out)

As far as Cars when they all are run by the same Samsung battery there will be less differences.. but until then.

pps. The snare is the focus of any set!

johnnyringo 01-12-2020 11:30 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jda (Post 456562)
ps. The snare (along with the bass drum and then the floor tom and the small tom) sets the tone of the entire set.

'He' would have been better off ....not using a snare at all. (if he didn't have the matching wood snare that went with each set) And just played toms and bass. (but that wouldn't be 70s rock now would it (unless you're ginger baker..)

Snare's your first Voice (next to bass) on a set. ( and he uses the same one thru out)

As far as Cars when they all are run by the same Samsung battery there will be less differences.. but until then.

pps. The snare is the focus of any set!

Not on this video, at the very end he only plays the toms and kick, that's what the video was about, why is this so difficult to comprehend?

jda 01-13-2020 12:03 AM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
I already said what I thought.

johnnyringo 01-13-2020 02:05 AM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
If he was testing different snares he wouldn't need a whole kit to demonstrate the difference. By using the same snare for each kit he was taking the attention away from the snare, only using it to be able to hear the kit played and not just hitting the toms and kick drums. It made total sense.

JimmySticks 01-13-2020 09:02 AM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jda (Post 456554)

And I don't mean Joe Morello. I mean Ornette Coleman. A deep dive into jazz. These drum demos (80% on youtube) (mycymbal, dcnh and the like) are all the the 2ft.- 4ft. wading pool of drumming.

Wow, I love Joe Morello. I always thought he was pretty deep.Mind Blowi

Next you'll tell me Buddy Rich wasn't the greatest drummer ever!:D

jda 01-13-2020 10:03 AM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
no el comprehendo

jda 01-13-2020 10:09 AM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyringo (Post 456571)
If he was testing different snares he wouldn't need a whole kit to demonstrate the difference. By using the same snare for each kit he was taking the attention away from the snare, only using it to be able to hear the kit played and not just hitting the toms and kick drums. It made total sense.

1948 Slingerland Radio King 24“ x 14“, 13“ x 9“, 16“ x 16“ in White Marine Pearl
1972 Slingerland Sound King 22“ x 14“, 13“ x 9“, 16“ x 16“ in Black Diamond Pearl
1967 Ludwig Super Classic 22“ x 14“, 13“ x 9“, 16“ x 16“ in Blue Oyster Pearl
1976 Ludwig Vistalite 22“ x 14“, 13“ x 9“, 16“ x 16“ in Clear
Late 1960’s Swingstar 20“ x 14“, 12“ x 8“, 14“ x 14“ in Fantasia Pearl
1970’s Sonor Champion 22“ x 14“, 13“ x 9“, 16“ x 16“ in rewrapped in Scandi Birch Grain

All Drums are played with a 1968 Ludwig Supraphonic in 14“ x 5“

The Ludwig snare went only with Ludwig kits. Is inaccurate representation (of each brands sound) to mix Ludwig with the other makes when they each had their own snare (which he left out) from their respective companies

So, among the many other things, it wasn't a full true ( was half-baked) kit comparison ; far from an "Ultimate Vintage Drums Comparison".

But if someone got something anything from it he succeeded.
I don't know why listing the colors, btw, had anything either to do with it. Could have been titled "Comparison Of Older Things In My Shop with a Ludwig snare" comparison.

johnnyringo 01-13-2020 11:42 AM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jda (Post 456578)
1948 Slingerland Radio King 24 x 14, 13 x 9, 16 x 16 in White Marine Pearl
1972 Slingerland Sound King 22 x 14, 13 x 9, 16 x 16 in Black Diamond Pearl
1967 Ludwig Super Classic 22 x 14, 13 x 9, 16 x 16 in Blue Oyster Pearl
1976 Ludwig Vistalite 22 x 14, 13 x 9, 16 x 16 in Clear
Late 1960s Swingstar 20 x 14, 12 x 8, 14 x 14 in Fantasia Pearl
1970s Sonor Champion 22 x 14, 13 x 9, 16 x 16 in rewrapped in Scandi Birch Grain

All Drums are played with a 1968 Ludwig Supraphonic in 14 x 5

The Ludwig snare went only with Ludwig kits. Is inaccurate representation (of each brands sound) to mix Ludwig with the other makes when they each had their own snare (which he left out) from their respective companies

So, among the many other things, it wasn't a full true ( was half-baked) kit comparison ; far from an "Ultimate Vintage Drums Comparison".

But if someone got something anything from it he succeeded.
I don't know why listing the colors, btw, had anything either to do with it. Could have been titled "Comparison Of Older Things In My Shop with a Ludwig snare" comparison.

You're right, how did I miss that? Every kit sounded like a Ludwig because of that darn supraphonic.
Btw, I notice you have the finish for each of your kits too. Hmmmm

wayne 01-13-2020 11:34 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
WHEN drums are tuned that low almost every drum will sound the same, entry level or high end. Some will figure out by this that there are not any earth shattering differences in any similar kit configuration. The audience would never hear it, and either would anyone else ….EXCEPT... maybe another overly critical drummer, who is looking for something to justify how his drums sound so much better!...its all marketing !!!

DrumBob 01-14-2020 07:51 AM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
I agree the toms and bass drums all sounded pretty much the same, and probably because they were tuned so ridiculously low. That video was hardly the last word on vintage drum tone.

johnnyringo 01-14-2020 08:24 AM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
He sounds like a rock drummer, so I'm sure that's why they were tuned lower and the 3ply shells with the rounded edges tend to favor the lower tunings. Not to mention most of the kits have bigger drums, not really what you'd use in a small jazz combo.
I doubt if they were tuned higher there would had been a big difference anyway except for the smaller kit.

OddBall 01-14-2020 06:51 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
All I could hear was the F`n snare buzz. Guy's a F`n moron......How are we supposed to hear a difference with snare buzz over the toms ? Every BD sounded like a snare drum.....WTF ??? Why do people do that ??

The Champion kit is Aug. 1978 and six ply with rounded edges. You should clearly be able to tell the difference, plus he's got a pillow in the BD's, so much for a sound test......

DrumBob 01-14-2020 08:06 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OddBall (Post 456630)
All I could hear was the F`n snare buzz. Guy's a F`n moron......How are we supposed to hear a difference with snare buzz over the toms ? Every BD sounded like a snare drum.....WTF ??? Why do people do that ??

The Champion kit is Aug. 1978 and six ply with rounded edges. You should clearly be able to tell the difference, plus he's got a pillow in the BD's, so much for a sound test......

I noticed the snare buzz, and all the bass drums sounded like dead shoeboxes with that stupid pillow inside. God, I hate that sound. It's so typical of drummers who have no clue that a bass drum should have some resonance to it. I have such a hard time with some of the people I play with, most of whom want a dead bass drum, just a thud.

Most of the time, when I sit in on someone else's drums, they have huge pillows stuffed inside their bass drums. I just want to ask, "Why?"

wayne 01-14-2020 11:31 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Check out Maxwells drums for comparisons, he has the experience these young guys don't have, but give them credit for trying. There are a lot of people on forums that are all talk and little substance....you know who.

johnnyringo 01-15-2020 12:15 AM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Damn you guys are a critical bunch. Snare buzz? That's what a snare does, it buzzes. Other than the kick drums being a bit too muffled, I thought all the drums sounded good.
In comparison, here's a Steve Maxwell video of a similar kit, he's a jazz guy and has it tuned for a big band setting. I doubt you'd get away with a kick that wide open in a studio or live rock or pop show. I used a 13,16,22 Slingerland at a big venue with the kick only having a felt strip on the batter side, the first thing the soundman did was stick towels inside it.

OddBall 01-15-2020 05:26 AM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
That's a whole lot better.

In that last video, if my old bass player was in the same building as that kit, you would not hear that snare shut up. Sometimes there's a little, but if you hear buzz on every single drum note, every bass riff, that snare needs to be tuned. That wheel is on the throw for a reason and it really helps to have a wheel on the butt end too.

I,ll bet anything that's the kind of kid that says,..."these are expensive drums, don't hit them."

OddBall 01-15-2020 05:34 AM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DrumBob (Post 456635)
I noticed the snare buzz, and all the bass drums sounded like dead shoeboxes with that stupid pillow inside. God, I hate that sound. It's so typical of drummers who have no clue that a bass drum should have some resonance to it. I have such a hard time with some of the people I play with, most of whom want a dead bass drum, just a thud.

Most of the time, when I sit in on someone else's drums, they have huge pillows stuffed inside their bass drums. I just want to ask, "Why?"

There's a time and place for the speed metal. You need dead drums to go fast the whole time. But if you go clubbing and take requests, it won't help you at all. I played speed metal for ever and never needed anything inside to kill the BD dead. I like sticking party balloons in there because they move around or something else for show. But a pillow lays on the shell and you have to play dead until you take it out.

When you play speed and dead, you go very lightly and need a hard rubber or wood batter. I drilled and screwed a golf ball on one time. You use your toes and pivot on your heel plate.

vintagemore2000 01-15-2020 08:15 AM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
I though the wmp WFL kit sounded like crap. Eric that is demoing the kit is a bud of mine he's a big time jazzer so it was tuned high, No thanks, I like rock tuning no muffling at all. including the snare drum. snare buzzing included.

johnnyringo 01-15-2020 08:21 AM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OddBall (Post 456645)
There's a time and place for the speed metal. You need dead drums to go fast the whole time. But if you go clubbing and take requests, it won't help you at all. I played speed metal for ever and never needed anything inside to kill the BD dead. I like sticking party balloons in there because they move around or something else for show. But a pillow lays on the shell and you have to play dead until you take it out.

When you play speed and dead, you go very lightly and need a hard rubber or wood batter. I drilled and screwed a golf ball on one time. You use your toes and pivot on your heel plate.

Wow, talk about getting off topic, party balloons and golf balls? Party
Did you think of your members name yourself, or was it thrust upon you?Falling Do

jda 01-15-2020 08:49 AM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
"It's Wayne's World, we just live in it"


DrumBob 01-15-2020 09:59 AM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyringo (Post 456640)
I used a 13,16,22 Slingerland at a big venue with the kick only having a felt strip on the batter side, the first thing the soundman did was stick towels inside it.
https://youtu.be/qUu5B2J7WfU

Of course, that's what sound guys do, mostly because the many of them don't know how to EQ drums properly.

I once had a sound man tape up all my batter heads to the point that there was no ring at all, just a dead thud. In the first set, I pulled all the tape off piece by piece, which made the guy mad. He had no idea how to mic wide open drums.

OddBall 01-15-2020 05:58 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyringo (Post 456650)
Wow, talk about getting off topic, party balloons and golf balls? Party
Did you think of your members name yourself, or was it thrust upon you?Falling Do

I kinda thought you could read and get that I don't use pillows which is on topic but sometimes I put toys in there cuz I feel like a kid sometimes banging away. I kill my BD to play speed crap and included what I do to it. :cool:

I was born standing up and walked out, mom thought it was kinda odd. Walking

O-Lugs 01-15-2020 07:42 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Disagree about vintage drums favoring lower tension. In my observation, they favor HIGHER tension -due to the fact that rounder edges provide more surface area for the mylar to come in contact with...and, as we all know, vintage roundover bearing edges are anything but precise! So the tighter you snug the heads up, the better the contact they make with the entire bearing edge surface -lumpy or not and making a better seal...thus, favoring higher tension. *EDIT And this is also why I often prefer to use a DIPLOMAT weight coated head for batter and resonant...The mylar is thinner and thus more malleable.

As far as these drum comparison videos...I don't really want to hear the bass drum or snare or cymbals that much when making drum comparisons. I tend to judge the sound based on the tom toms. That's why I really like this guys demo videos. He doesn't do comparisons, but he presents the drums in a very nice way with great audio and easy to watch video....

OddBall 01-15-2020 08:08 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by O-Lugs (Post 456676)
Disagree about vintage drums favoring lower tension. In my observation, they favor HIGHER tension -due to the fact that rounder edges provide more surface area for the mylar to come in contact with...and, as we all know, vintage roundover bearing edges are anything but precise! So the tighter you snug the heads up, the better the contact they make with the entire bearing edge surface -lumpy or not and making a better seal...thus, favoring higher tension. *EDIT And this is also why I often prefer to use a DIPLOMAT weight coated head for batter and resonant...The mylar is thinner and thus more malleable.

As far as these drum comparison videos...I don't really want to hear the bass drum or snare or cymbals that much when making drum comparisons. I tend to judge the sound based on the tom toms. That's why I really like this guys demo videos. He doesn't do comparisons, but he presents the drums in a very nice way with great audio and easy to watch video....
FRANCO DAL MONEGO PLAYS GRETSCH ROUNDBADGE VINTAGE 60's SILVER SPARKLE JAZZ SET 18/12/14 - YouTube

I like mine the way they are, 45 with floating heads. Very little shell contact at all. Sharp and short notes. I wax them and don't get a lot of that cracking and skipping I hear my friend's drums do when we tune his. I find fine tuning more precise with less shell contact. Tight or lose, little shell contact is what I like.

OddBall 01-15-2020 08:09 PM

Re: Vintage Drums Comparison
 
Oh, and thin heads last a day on my kit. I get sink holes in the middle.


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